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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 2:56:28 GMT
Do Freemasons preform Ritual Sacrifice ? i was defending masonry on some random chat a few years back and someone was saying how one of their family members was in masonry and said that in the higher degrees they sacrifice small animals. now, this makes perfect sense to myself, having studied the occult, it does not seem unlikely. BUT, at any rate, i found this interesting video on youtube the other day, it has been on there for over a year, so sorry if this was already posted. heres the vid: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyuhhH2g5lYit shows what appeared to be a basic masonic ritual, and has a ritual sacrafice of a goat on a pentagram above a checkered floor. it might be a fake, the quality is low, the majority of the video seems to be a legit masonic ritual, but when it shifts to the sacrifice, the lighting kind of changes, almost as if someone just pasted the sacrafice footage in between footage of a masonic ritual. but then again, it might be 100% legit. check it out and discuss.
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Post by generatics on Aug 1, 2009 4:00:09 GMT
i'm not convinced this question is for real, but assuming it is; NO. absolutely no.
furthermore, i think it's more than obvious that this video consists of footage from a Blue Lodge degree ceremony inside a Masonic Lodge. then suddenly spliced into the middle is some footage of a completely different room, full of completely different people, performing some scene which i do not recognize as any Masonic ritual. nothing about it looks like any Masonic ritual i've ever seen or heard of. the hooded robes are not Masonic and frankly look either like the KKK or just something fake. i also don't see a goat anywhere, for what that's worth. then you have another sudden edit, cutting back to the fully lit Lodge room and the closing of the Lodge.
no Masonic ritual of any rite involves animals in any way, shape or form. we did have to call an exterminator once to deal with a squirrel infestation in the roof of our Lodge building. does that count? this is just goofy.
nothing to see here, move along. a not-even-remotely-clever fake.
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 4:47:16 GMT
i said the video might be fake, but i dont think it is entirely unlikely that occult groups like freemasonry practive ritual sacrafice. i know it does not happen in the first 32 degrees of the scottish rite and i doubt it exists at all in the templar/rose cross degrees, but that does not mean that it does not exist at all in any occult ritual group, which the degrees of freemasonry may be a prerequisite to join.
it is a real question and someone would be foolish to assume it does not exist at all.
if freemasonry is the study of ancient knowledge and spirituality, or rather knowledge derived from ancient spirituality, leaving out sacrafice would be a pretty huge part.
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Post by generatics on Aug 1, 2009 5:25:45 GMT
i said the video might be fake, but i dont think it is entirely unlikely that occult groups like freemasonry practive ritual sacrafice. i know it does not happen in the first 32 degrees of the scottish rite and i doubt it exists at all in the templar/rose cross degrees, but that does not mean that it does not exist at all in any occult ritual group, which the degrees of freemasonry may be a prerequisite to join. it is a real question and someone would be foolish to assume it does not exist at all. if freemasonry is the study of ancient knowledge and spirituality, or rather knowledge derived from ancient spirituality, leaving out sacrafice would be a pretty huge part. you say "occult groups like freemasonry"; well, what would make them "like freemasonry" exactly? there are positive occult practices and negative occult practices. freemasonry falls squarely on the positive side of the fence. are there occult groups in the world that perform ritual sacrifice? maybe. scary thought, but there are plenty of creeps in the world. are any of these groups Masonic? absolutely not. could there be a member of one of these groups who is also a Mason? possibly. but i don't think that would last long should someone find out. there are cops who also sell drugs. would i say that "police officers are drug dealers."? no way. selling drugs is not part of police work. just as abhorrent things such as animal sacrifice are not part of Freemasonry. as for groups which require degrees of freemasonry to join, here are but a few: Shriners: requires 32nd degree in some places, in my jurisdiction only the 3rd is needed. they dress up as clowns and visit hospitals. these old fellas might be offended by being called an old goat, that's about it. The Grotto, or, MOVPER (Mysitcal Order of the Veiled Prophets of the Enchanted Realm): really cool name! but a fairly boring seniors club. the do put on lovely stage plays which are completely harmless. my grandpa was in there. he loved animals and raised goats, for the record. Order of Eastern Star: 3rd degree required for men. very Christian and biblical ritual, which isn't incredibly exciting. my girlfriend and grandma are members. Rosicrucian Freemasons (Societas Rosicruciana in Civitatibus Foederatis): Knight Templar of York Rite req'd: Membership, which is by invitation, is predicated on Masonic affiliation and Christianity, Christianity also req'd for Knight Templar degree. August Order of Light: 3rd degree req'd. steeped in Eastern philosophy. you can easily find their complete rituals online if you wish to. 100% goat-free. Order of the Amaranth: 3rd degree req'd. In the Order's teachings, the members are emphatically reminded of their duties to God, to their country and to their fellow beings (that includes goats). Tall Cedars of Lebanon: Unlike the York Rite or Scottish Rite, which confer Masonic degrees which extend or expound upon basic craft Masonry, Tall Cedarism is more a social body, like the Shriners. Its motto, "Fun, Frolic, & Fellowship," is indicative of this social bent. Toltec Rite: 32nd degree or Knight Templar req'd for men. "co-ed" Masonic group. you can read their complete degrees online as well. no goats there either. there are loads more, and they are mostly rather boring social clubs. i would actually only consider one or maybe two of the above as being "occult" at all, and none negative or playing in the depths of animal sacrifice. are there any specific occult bodies you are referring to which require Masonic membership to join?
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 6:45:04 GMT
"are there any specific occult bodies you are referring to which require Masonic membership to join?"
not specifically, but a 33rd who initiated me into the blue lodge told me that he had just been initiated into a group (no name given) that required that you were a 33rd for at least 3 years, he said that it was secret and could not talk about it much, then i brought it up later and he told everyone present at my initiation little more about it, some of the famous people present, an ex president (carter) and some famous comedian, he was not actually WM at the time, he just kind of gave me a sort of pep talk when i was putting on the costume.
several other masons both at my lodge and meeting from friends and family have told me after getting the 33rd other secret groups exist that you could join to further the ritual work.
another thing is that at my lodge, which is a very big one (both the size of the physical building and the amount of members and ritual work) their is white and black as well as red robes in the costume room, so to say that black or white robes is not masonic is not entirely true, i have not used them in the blue lodge, but someone in the building is using them in a ritual.
Next, why does sacrifice have to be so sinister or evil ? to the ancients it was a natural part of their worship.
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Post by magusmasonica on Aug 1, 2009 7:03:22 GMT
All of this talk of 32nd this and 33rd that is really tiresome. Edward, I hate to tell you this but in America a 32nd degree Mason is nothing more than a Master Mason who paid some money and sat in on a few degrees over the span of a weekend. They do not know any big "secret" or anything of the like just because they are memebers of their local Scottish Rite.
I am afraid that if you ever set foot in your neighborhood Masonic lodge you would be really dissapointed to find discussions about paying bills and some stale doughnuts.
Love and Light,
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Post by generatics on Aug 1, 2009 7:23:53 GMT
"are there any specific occult bodies you are referring to which require Masonic membership to join?" not specifically, but a 33rd who initiated me into the blue lodge told me that he had just been initiated into a group (no name given) that required that you were a 33rd for at least 3 years, he said that it was secret and could not talk about it much, then i brought it up later and he told everyone present at my initiation little more about it, some of the famous people present, an ex president (carter) and some famous comedian, he was not actually WM at the time, he just kind of gave me a sort of pep talk when i was putting on the costume. several other masons both at my lodge and meeting from friends and family have told me after getting the 33rd other secret groups exist that you could join to further the ritual work. another thing is that at my lodge, which is a very big one (both the size of the physical building and the amount of members and ritual work) their is white and black as well as red robes in the costume room, so to say that black or white robes is not masonic is not entirely true, i have not used them in the blue lodge, but someone in the building is using them in a ritual. Next, why does sacrifice have to be so sinister or evil ? to the ancients it was a natural part of their worship. well i think even though these 33+ degree groups might be "secret", if you asked your Brother who belongs if they do any ritual animal sacrifice my guess is that his face will go from shock to horror to are-you-kidding to no way before you even finish the sentence. but why not give it a shot? also, Carter is not a Freemason. as for the robes, i was referring to the hoods covering their faces. we are at an impasse. you asked if Freemasons perform ritual sacrifice. i'm telling you no. there is little more i can offer. whether or not ancient people doing it is right or wrong is not a conversation i'm interested or qualified in having. i'm so totally not ancient. if you discover something contrary i would be very interested to hear about it. cheers.
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 8:08:04 GMT
i could be wrong on carter, it was several years ago, good point on asking, i would like to see the expression. I doubt i will find any more evidence than listed, if you would even call it that, which i do not, i posted because i cant say for sure if ritual sacrifice exists among masons, i just think it is not unlikely and i need somewhere to ask other than a conspiracy forum where i am likely to get a more unsatisfactory response.
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 8:25:33 GMT
All of this talk of 32nd this and 33rd that is really tiresome. Edward, I hate to tell you this but in America a 32nd degree Mason is nothing more than a Master Mason who paid some money and sat in on a few degrees over the span of a weekend. They do not know any big "secret" or anything of the like just because they are memebers of their local Scottish Rite. I am afraid that if you ever set foot in your neighborhood Masonic lodge you would be really dissapointed to find discussions about paying bills and some stale doughnuts. Love and Light, that is the first thing i thought when i walked into a lodge, i know most of the curious conspiracy theorists on the web would be disappointed to know that sports get talked about more than politics at most lodges. none the less, what i have read in morals and dogma, and several of the works and authors mentioned in morals and dogma, as well as several other authors who write about the same type of religious symbolism are not at all what most of the masons i have met perceive masonry/occult/spirituality. i understand albert pike is not the voice of every mason, but his philosophy as mostly paraphrased of several other authors, is most convincing and meaningful to me. so i am asking these questions that have come up in my mind during these studies.
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 1, 2009 8:58:32 GMT
I have been a Freemason for nearly 21 years and had studied the subject since my teens reading all I could get my hands upon on Freemasonry. When I was in UGLE I was a member of 15 Orders over and above Craft in which I am a Past Master. I have been a member of LDH for almost 3 years now and hold the 18th Degree in the A&ASR. I can tell you that nowhere in my experience have I ever come across any mention far less the performance of animal or any other form of sacrifice.
I would also like to say that both in UGLE and LDH the Degrees from 30th to 33rd in A&ASR are NOT attained in a weekend by paying a fee, whatever may happen in other jurisdictions overseas, but only confered after hard work and service to Freemasonry.
I also know Christian Clergymen who hold the 32nd and 33rd Degrees and am confident that they would not perform animal sacrifice.
Like the time worn and tedious references to "The Goat" all this talk about Freemasons and Animal Sacrifice is yet another slander on a noble Organisation and a piece of sensationalism dreamt up by the anti-Masonic lobby.
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Post by generatics on Aug 1, 2009 17:04:06 GMT
...i posted because i cant say for sure if ritual sacrifice exists among masons... in that case, while we're entertaining the likes of David Icke, i can't say for sure whether or not there are reptilian shape shifters in Freemasonry. and i cannot be 100% certain that the first raising didn't take place inside the hull of a UFO. i mean, without proof how can i be sure?!? rubbish. you have zero reason to believe it does exist within Freemasonry. because people did it in ancient times? that's it? not good enough. people also did bloodletting and stuck leaches to their body. do you believe that exists in Freemasonry as well? i mean without proof, how can you be sure it doesn't?! see how silly that sounds? what if i said i don't believe you are even a Mason? well, without proof how could i be sure?! it's called "good faith", "innocent until proven guilty", whatever you want to call it. i don't believe you really think it exists. i think you are stirring the you-know-what. and you have a choice; continue asking people who are actually members and know what they are talking about, or, continue fantasizing on your own about something that doesn't exist. either way, you seem to be coming to the same conclusion. i have absolutely no proof that you are not in fact a Jedi Knight. how am i supposed to take anything you say seriously when i cannot disprove your membership as a Jedi Warrior?! actually, it's easy. it's called common sense. works wonders.
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Post by magusmasonica on Aug 1, 2009 18:19:12 GMT
If there where animal sacrifices how long does anyone really think it would take before that type of activity would see the light of day? I mean people (Masons not excluded) love to gossip. I could just see somebody witnessing an animal sacrifice in lodge, going home and telling the wife, brother, mother in law whatever and then it would be all over the front page.
The fact that this has NEVER happened should give non Masons some clue.
Love and Light,
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 20:06:28 GMT
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 20:15:37 GMT
more info.....
Animal Sacrifice in the Jewish Scriptures & Christian Old Testament
Book of Genesis:
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering. [Genesis 4:4]
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the Altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet saviour. [Genesis 8:20-21]
And He said unto [Abraham], Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece against another. [Genesis 15:9-10]
And He said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. [Genesis 22:2]
Book of Exodus:
And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God [Exodus 10:25]
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen [Exodus 20:24]
And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar. And thou shalt cut the ram into pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head. And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And thou shalt take the other ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram. Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about. And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. Also thou shalt take of the ram the fat and the rump, and the fat that coveth the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and the right shoulder; for it is a ram of consecration. [Exodus 29:16-22]
Book of Leviticus:
And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces. And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire: And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. [Leviticus 1:5-9]
And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering. And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering. And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. [Leviticus 4:24-26]
And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off his head from the neck, but shall not divide it asunder. [Leviticus 5:7-8]
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering: It is the burnt offering, because of the burning upon the altar all night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be burning in it. And the priest shall put on his linen garment, and his linen breeches shall he put upon his flesh, and take up the ashes which the fire hath consumed with the burnt offering on the altar, and he shall put them beside the altar. And he shall put off his garments, and put on other garments, and carry forth the ashes without the camp unto a clean place. And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings. The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out. And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar. [Leviticus 6:8-14]
And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf a he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of a hin. [Leviticus 23:12-13]
Book of Numbers:
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. [Numbers 15:27]
But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD. [Numbers 18:17]
And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot; And three tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one bullock; and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one ram; And a several tenth deal of flour mingled with oil for a meat offering unto one lamb; for a burnt offering of a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD. [Numbers 28:11-13]
And one kid of the goats for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you: Beside the burnt offering of the month, and his meat offering, and the daily burnt offering, and his meat offering, and their drink offerings, according unto their manner, for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD. [Numbers 29:5-6]
Book of Deuteronomy:
And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. [Deuteronomy 12:27]
Psalms: A verse less concerned with the correct sacrifice, blood and fire rituals but concerned instead with diet, appears in the Psalms, hinting that Angels too eat meat:
...He commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven. And had rained down manna [food from heaven] upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full. [Psalms 78:23-25]
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Post by magusmasonica on Aug 1, 2009 20:24:21 GMT
I am not surewhat that proves. Even if the OTO (who I am not a member of but I do know many members who are great people) is a totally different Order. Kind of like holding Microsoft accountable for Apple products. Love and Light,
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 20:59:19 GMT
i was asking if anyone knew if the oto practices ritual sacrifice, not if the oto and freemasonry are the same thing. im just showing evidence is out there that occult ritual groups practice ritual sacrafice. here is more: www.kttc.com/Global/story.asp?S=10829588Court gives Santeria priest OK to sacrifice goats Posted: Jul 31, 2009 5:23 PM PDT Updated: Jul 31, 2009 10:03 PM PDT DALLAS (AP) — A federal appeals court reversed a lower court's ruling on Friday that barred a Santeria priest from sacrificing goats in his Texas home, saying a city's decision to prohibit the ritual violated the man's religious rights. Jose Merced, 46, accuses the city of Euless, Texas, of trampling on his constitutional right to religious exercise. The city claims the sacrifices jeopardize public health and violate its slaughterhouse and animal cruelty ordinances. Last year, U.S. District Judge John McBryde sided with the Fort Worth suburb and dismissed the Puerto Rico native's claims. Merced appealed. In its ruling, the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans said the Euless ordinance placed a substantial burden on Merced's "free exercise of religion without advancing a compelling governmental interest using the least restrictive means." "It's a great day for religious freedom in Texas," said Eric Rassbach, Merced's lawyer, in response to the three-judge panel's ruling. Merced said by practicing his faith in the privacy of his own home, he didn't harm anyone. "Now Santeros can practice their religion at home without being afraid of being fined, arrested or taken to court," Merced said. ...... your saying "oto....I do know many members who are great people" when i dont see why "great people" cannot preform ritual sacrafice. your implying that ritual sacrafice is such a terrible thing ? why ? its just a religious practice, it has been practived for centuries to this day all around the world..... im trying to show that ritual sacrifice does exist, and its not my attempt to link freemasonry with anything sinister, its just a revival/renual of ancient spiritual practice.....
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 21:04:46 GMT
If there where animal sacrifices how long does anyone really think it would take before that type of activity would see the light of day? I mean people (Masons not excluded) love to gossip. I could just see somebody witnessing an animal sacrifice in lodge, going home and telling the wife, brother, mother in law whatever and then it would be all over the front page. The fact that this has NEVER happened should give non Masons some clue. Love and Light, but like i said earlier "i was defending masonry on some random chat a few years back and someone was saying how one of their family members was in masonry and said that in the higher degrees they sacrifice small animals." i know this is not any kind of definite source, but the rumors do exist, and based on the court case above, i think it could be perfectly legal to do so.....
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 21:26:12 GMT
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Post by edward on Aug 1, 2009 21:37:46 GMT
All of this talk of 32nd this and 33rd that is really tiresome. Edward, I hate to tell you this but in America a 32nd degree Mason is nothing more than a Master Mason who paid some money and sat in on a few degrees over the span of a weekend. They do not know any big "secret" or anything of the like just because they are memebers of their local Scottish Rite. I am afraid that if you ever set foot in your neighborhood Masonic lodge you would be really dissapointed to find discussions about paying bills and some stale doughnuts. Love and Light, from amazon.com book review: www.amazon.com/Ordo-Chao-Original-Complete-Charleston/dp/156459999X/ref=sip_rech_dp_8Ordo ab Chao: The Original and Complete Rituals, 4th-33rd Degrees of the first Supreme Council, 33rd Degree at Charleston, South Carolina By Paul C. Graham "~ Paul C." (Columbia, SC (Occupied)) - See all my reviews (REAL NAME) "If you are a Scottish Rite Mason and were impressed with the degree work through which you went, you will be amazed to find how far we are from our historical ritualistic roots. If you are a Scottish Rite Mason of the Southern Jurisdiction, then you are doubtlessly aware of Albert Pike's revision of these rituals. After reading this, you may think he should have left them alone. These rituals are not for the faint of heart. The 30th Degree as exposed in this book which made the hair stand up on my arms! I also enjoyed unapoligetic Christian nature of the 18th Degree, something made less obvious and/or purposely obscured by Pike in his revisions. (Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Pike fan, but these rituals are, in my opinion, in no way inferior to what he put forward and which are now the basis of ritual work in the Southern Jurisdiction.) Highly recommended reading for those interested in the evolution of Masonic thought and practice... "
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Post by magusmasonica on Aug 1, 2009 22:41:59 GMT
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