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Post by magusmasonica on Oct 20, 2009 5:50:26 GMT
i go all over the place on this topic. yes, i certainly do believe that our ritual is ceremonial magick. where i start to seesaw is whether or not it's actually working and why. i know many Bren. that couldn't care less about the esoteric, or even the casually spiritual, sides of the Craft. i'd venture that most of these fellas are not even aware of such things, they simply are not involved for those reasons. and then i know a few others who are distinctly the opposite. i've seen candidates try to hold back laughter through the entire event and then go to the bar afterward, and others brought to tears with clear physical and emotional impact. on one hand, i think a Brother must want it and be receptive and open for it to work. and on the other hand, i wonder if it is largely alchemical and scientific, and so should it just have the same effect no matter what? or maybe it's up to the Brethren performing the initiation? can a Lodge working the ritual powerfully and with all of their will impose the same effect on an initiate regardless of his openness or even his understanding? what if he is there so he can just get his ring and be part of the club? can we still trigger this catalyst within him if he doesn't know he wants it? If a log is saturated with water hit it with a blow torch and it won't light. This is why we encourage a candidate first be a member of the Golden Dawn, Martinists, Rosicrucians etc. Or at least be into the basics of Kabbalah. Those who just want to relive their "greek row" days do nothing and get nothing. Love and Light, |
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 20, 2009 8:01:31 GMT
i go all over the place on this topic. yes, i certainly do believe that our ritual is ceremonial magick. where i start to seesaw is whether or not it's actually working and why. i know many Bren. that couldn't care less about the esoteric, or even the casually spiritual, sides of the Craft. i'd venture that most of these fellas are not even aware of such things, they simply are not involved for those reasons. and then i know a few others who are distinctly the opposite. i've seen candidates try to hold back laughter through the entire event and then go to the bar afterward, and others brought to tears with clear physical and emotional impact. on one hand, i think a Brother must want it and be receptive and open for it to work. and on the other hand, i wonder if it is largely alchemical and scientific, and so should it just have the same effect no matter what? or maybe it's up to the Brethren performing the initiation? can a Lodge working the ritual powerfully and with all of their will impose the same effect on an initiate regardless of his openness or even his understanding? what if he is there so he can just get his ring and be part of the club? can we still trigger this catalyst within him if he doesn't know he wants it? If a log is saturated with water hit it with a blow torch and it won't light. This is why we encourage a candidate first be a member of the Golden Dawn, Martinists, Rosicrucians etc. Or at least be into the basics of Kabbalah. Those who just want to relive their "greek row" days do nothing and get nothing. Love and Light, If the same log is left alone in a dry (safe) place in time it will be able to be lit. There is room for everyone in Freemasonry, to throw away everyone just because they cannot see or feel at the time is in my own opinion short sighted and terribly arrogant. (We were all in the dark originally) When you talk about all theses other esoteric orders, one must ask yourself, where do we get the majority of our members from? Freemasonry is a system of filtration, maybe my sieve has bigger holes at the first go than yours does? I also must again reemphasise the greatest of all masonic virtues, tolerance! This is particularly important in situations like we are talking about here. |
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Post by magusmasonica on Oct 20, 2009 9:12:08 GMT
If a log is saturated with water hit it with a blow torch and it won't light. This is why we encourage a candidate first be a member of the Golden Dawn, Martinists, Rosicrucians etc. Or at least be into the basics of Kabbalah. Those who just want to relive their "greek row" days do nothing and get nothing. Love and Light, If the same log is left alone in a dry (safe) place in time it will be able to be lit. There is room for everyone in Freemasonry, to throw away everyone just because they cannot see or feel at the time is in my own opinion short sighted and terribly arrogant. (We were all in the dark originally) When you talk about all theses other esoteric orders, one must ask yourself, where do we get the majority of our members from? Freemasonry is a system of filtration, maybe my sieve has bigger holes at the first go than yours does? I also must again reemphasise the greatest of all masonic virtues, tolerance! This is particularly important in situations like we are talking about here. When the log is dried out then it can recieve the light. Guarding the west gate is weeding out the wet logs. Love and Light, |
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 20, 2009 10:03:42 GMT
Brad
Why would you want to weed out the wet logs? Surely the story of the ugly duckling is a worthwhile consideration!?
Some masons might take 10 years to get it, others 10 mins, they are both worthy of help and consideration. We all cannot start in Pole position.
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Post by generatics on Oct 20, 2009 10:06:11 GMT
I dunno. Everyone deserves a fair shake. As Bro. Middlepillar said above, we were all in the dark once. Heck I know I have a long way to go myself. I've seen a few Bros who started out being very casual with Masonry slowly (but surely) make extremely positive changes in their lives. Is the Lodge to blame? Could be. Why not, right? Of course I've seen plenty of folks who I might describe as being there for the wrong reasons. Still they have every right to be there. The only time is bothers me is when a truly interested Bro has to be raised from the sidelines alongside 5 others who aren't in it with their all, I think that's unfair.
Having never practiced any other form of esoteric ritual outside of Masonry, I'd still really like to hear someone experienced's thoughts on the scientific (for lack of a better term) processes involved and if typical ritual magick of any kind can have equal effect whether or not the recipient is hip to what's going on?
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Augur
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Post by Augur on Oct 20, 2009 13:03:38 GMT
Some masons might take 10 years to get it, others 10 mins, they are both worthy of help and consideration. We all cannot start in Pole position. Precisely. And get what, exactly? Freemasonry certainly contains ceremonial magick, but to define it as being just that is pretty narrow minded. Freemasonry doesn't begin or end with the ritual aspects any more than Catholicism begins and ends with the Mass. What you do before Lodge and after Lodge, what you take in and take out with you, is probably just as, if not more important, than mere expertise at ritual work. You can be an expert at the ritual work and still not 'get' what Freemasonry is really all about, imho. S&F |
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Post by maat on Oct 20, 2009 21:59:36 GMT
"He drew a circle that shut me out – heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. But Love and I had the wit to win: we drew a circle that took him in!" Edwin Markham
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Post by maat on Oct 20, 2009 22:00:31 GMT
Worth saying twice that one...
"He drew a circle that shut me out – heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. But Love and I had the wit to win: we drew a circle that took him in!" Edwin Markham
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Post by maat on Oct 20, 2009 22:52:03 GMT
I dunno. Everyone deserves a fair shake. As Bro. Middlepillar said above, we were all in the dark once. Heck I know I have a long way to go myself. I've seen a few Bros who started out being very casual with Masonry slowly (but surely) make extremely positive changes in their lives. Is the Lodge to blame? Could be. Why not, right? Of course I've seen plenty of folks who I might describe as being there for the wrong reasons. Still they have every right to be there. The only time is bothers me is when a truly interested Bro has to be raised from the sidelines alongside 5 others who aren't in it with their all, I think that's unfair. Having never practiced any other form of esoteric ritual outside of Masonry, I'd still really like to hear someone experienced's thoughts on the scientific (for lack of a better term) processes involved and if typical ritual magick of any kind can have equal effect whether or not the recipient is hip to what's going on? Good question ... and difficult for me to answer. So the following are just my thoughts. True Initiation, imo, occurs when a level of concious co-operation with the GA and His plan has been achieved and that through our own efforts. Sometimes this coincides with a ceremonial Initiation and sometimes it doesn't. It all depends on the candidate. Our intuition (in tuition) is a pretty good guide to what this plan might be in each circumstance that confronts us. The craft actually exemplifies this in its ceremonies. I am really disappointed to hear about bulk raising. It could hardly have the same impact on the psyche. However, I have no doubts whatsoever that when a person is ready there will be absolutely nothing earthly that would be able to hold him back from the next level. The Bible, when one discovers the keys describe this process... as do the symbols and allegories of Freemasonry... the Kabbala... the major arcana of the Tarot cards (would you believe  ) and many other systems of knowledge. Re: the energies in lodge, I don't doubt that they are elevated. I have posted here several times about Brn arriving tired out and going home energised, arriving ill and going home 'cured' and then there are the flowers an older lady mason brings, they last a good two weeks longer than they should. This might account for why there are so many older masons still arround ;D Maat |
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Post by theplumbtruth on Oct 21, 2009 18:49:19 GMT
If a log is saturated with water hit it with a blow torch and it won't light. This is why we encourage a candidate first be a member of the Golden Dawn, Martinists, Rosicrucians etc. Or at least be into the basics of Kabbalah. Those who just want to relive their "greek row" days do nothing and get nothing. Love and Light, Though I personally find it a sad truth, I still think there's room in the world for those just reliving their 'greek row' days even if it's for fraternal bonding. These may be the folks that are only wet logs, but the last time I looked we all start out in the NE corner of the lodge, laying the cornerstone of our souls and creating the foundation upon which we all must grow and learn. I'm slanted towards members coming into Masonry like a clean slate, ready for the fantastic journey ahead. I'm not opposed to members having some previous knowledge and experience but I've personally seen that sometimes to much experience can get in the way of the member's grounding themselves in Masonry. Unfortunately at the other end of the spectrum I've seen Initiates approach Masonry as just another 'notch on their belt' and then walk away from it all thinking there wasn't anything new to learn. Brad, sorry to say I haven't read through everything on the Lodge Napoleon website, but does it specify anywhere that you prefer members who seek admittance to have a bit of background experience? I support your right to approach Masonry in the fashion you choose, I just don't happen to agree about the whole wet log analogy. |
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Post by magusmasonica on Oct 21, 2009 19:55:12 GMT
If a log is saturated with water hit it with a blow torch and it won't light. This is why we encourage a candidate first be a member of the Golden Dawn, Martinists, Rosicrucians etc. Or at least be into the basics of Kabbalah. Those who just want to relive their "greek row" days do nothing and get nothing. Love and Light, Though I personally find it a sad truth, I still think there's room in the world for those just reliving their 'greek row' days even if it's for fraternal bonding. These may be the folks that are only wet logs, but the last time I looked we all start out in the NE corner of the lodge, laying the cornerstone of our souls and creating the foundation upon which we all must grow and learn. I'm slanted towards members coming into Masonry like a clean slate, ready for the fantastic journey ahead. I'm not opposed to members having some previous knowledge and experience but I've personally seen that sometimes to much experience can get in the way of the member's grounding themselves in Masonry. Unfortunately at the other end of the spectrum I've seen Initiates approach Masonry as just another 'notch on their belt' and then walk away from it all thinking there wasn't anything new to learn. Brad, sorry to say I haven't read through everything on the Lodge Napoleon website, but does it specify anywhere that you prefer members who seek admittance to have a bit of background experience? I support your right to approach Masonry in the fashion you choose, I just don't happen to agree about the whole wet log analogy. Brother, The current in which we work reauires a deep esoteric understanding. Now I am not speaking for all Freemasonry. It has been our experience that those who are strictly exoteric regardless if they be fraternal or philosophical will just not do well within our cosmology. What we do is so deeply magickal that someone who just wants to drink and hang out, or do charity work, or be a springboard for secular politics just won't feel comfortable with what we do. Different strokes for different folks. Love and Light, |
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Post by assassin on Oct 22, 2009 21:40:42 GMT
In most rites of Masonry that I have seen, studied or experienced I say that if it is ceremonial magic it is doing a poor job of it.
Hassan ibn Sabbah
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Post by magusmasonica on Oct 26, 2009 19:45:18 GMT
In most rites of Masonry that I have seen, studied or experienced I say that if it is ceremonial magic it is doing a poor job of it. Hassan ibn Sabbah Just curious, what are you making the comparison to? Love and Light, |
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Post by theplumbtruth on Oct 26, 2009 22:03:50 GMT
Brother, The current in which we work reauires a deep esoteric understanding. Now I am not speaking for all Freemasonry. It has been our experience that those who are strictly exoteric regardless if they be fraternal or philosophical will just not do well within our cosmology. What we do is so deeply magickal that someone who just wants to drink and hang out, or do charity work, or be a springboard for secular politics just won't feel comfortable with what we do. Bro Brad, I really DO appreciate that you work within a Masonic Order that provides greater depth into the Ancient Mysteries. I think I'm trying to understand to what extent and background is it beneficial to have in order to pursue your work. I know you mentioned previously that it's good to have at least a working knowledge of the Kabbalah. How much do you help your brethren learn from that point on the deeper workings of ceremonial magick? I'm thinking I have some other friends in mind (and oh I know how trite that sounds!  that may be better suited to your craft. As I've mentioned before, I've seen people come into LDH with a great deal of magical experience only to think they have nothing more to learn. That's an issue in and of itself since I think we all continue to learn and grow even if it appears that we're repeating lessons. Thanks again for any insight! |
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Post by maat on Oct 26, 2009 22:34:16 GMT
Interesting post re 'experience' TPT.... at our open night just recently I made a real point of the fact that we would not even entertain the thought of anyone becoming a mason who thought they were perfect already and knew it all. What could we offer them?! We also laboured the point that Freemasonry can and will only give back in enlightened form what the candidate/neophyte/mason puts in.
Happy to say they were all humble, and eager despite the warnings.
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Post by beersheva on Mar 1, 2014 17:03:14 GMT
If one defines MAGIA as using ones' mind and will to create a change in some level of "reality", then we all do MAGIA most of the time. BUT, MAGIA is, as Paracelsus said, "A great secret WISDOM, just as REASON is a great public FOLLY." MAGIA is an ART and a SCIENCE, for good or evil, and was never intended for the masses. Masonry is many things to many men, and only few in any age attain to adeptship, or mastery of the hidden light, so-called.
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uriel
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Post by uriel on Jan 31, 2015 2:34:19 GMT
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) and many other systems of knowledge.
that may be better suited to your craft. As I've mentioned before, I've seen people come into LDH with a great deal of magical experience only to think they have nothing more to learn. That's an issue in and of itself since I think we all continue to learn and grow even if it appears that we're repeating lessons. Thanks again for any insight!
