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Post by QUEST on Nov 7, 2009 23:31:22 GMT
Does a near death experience prove conscious life after death? Or maybe a glimpse into it? I think its possible, but need more light. Thanks.
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Nosameerf
Member
Masonic Saturday Night Fever!
Posts: 74
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Post by Nosameerf on Nov 7, 2009 23:47:08 GMT
I am actually reading a fascinating overview regarding the study of NDE's entitled Religion, Spirituality and the Near-Death Experience by Mark Fox. The fact that so many people report similar NDE experiences is very interesting, though cultural factors apparently influence the perception of each individuals experience. Something that was pointed out in this book is that nobody has died in the sense that they were a corpse and then came back from the dead. Their body was still in a sense alive. This leaves open the possibility that the NDE itself might have a possible biology basis. I prefer the spooky alternative of course.
This may be of interest:
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Post by maat on Nov 11, 2009 0:16:27 GMT
This leaves open the possibility that the NDE itself might have a possible biology basis. I prefer the spooky alternative of course. Good news for you then - I have actually seen 'a real live ghost' - and have no doubts whatsoever about survival of the death experience. Just an ordinary man, no-one I knew, woke up and he was standing beside the bed looking at me.... not something I want to happen again real soon, I can tell you. I called on every 'holy' person/god I could think of to get him to go away... he did. But now in the light of day I realise I squandered a wonderful opportunity to discover more about the other side. Also had what I took to be an angel appear during a lucid dream - it confirmed for me that reincarnation is fact. Never doubted it since, not ever for a millisecond. Remember the words .... labour to refreshment and refreshment to labour again? What if this, at one level, refers to a day in school (one life time)? Those words 'after seeing that every Bro has had his due' would become most meaningful... and scary ;D Maat
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Post by theplumbtruth on Nov 11, 2009 5:25:29 GMT
Maat, I chuckle too wondering what a 'real live ghost' may be! But seriously though your phrase 'survival of the death experience' is one to ponder on. I would think of that as different than a 'near death experience'. The survival part I think can vary from a left-over imprint from the dead to possibly a 'ghost' caught in between this and the great beyond.
Your story reminded me of an experience when I was in my mid-20's and no where near along this sacred path I've been journeying. I was asleep and awakened to the presence of someone in my bed next to me. I knew instinctively it wasn't an actual person but the presence of one. I could even feel the weight of the mattress shift. It scared the holy s.... out of me, I was frozen and couldn't move and the only thing that stopped it was when a picture of my mother flew off the nightstand. She had passed away just a few months before, and I had had a few visits from her in my dreams, but the picture falling over was a most definite message to snap me out of it and it sent the 'entity' away. Never happened again after that. So I know visitations take various forms whether white and ghostly, in between realms or as a left-over psychic imprint.
Nowadays when my husbands deceased dog visits us during the night I simply tell him in the morning that his dear departed little Buckers stopped by. He usually wakes me up walking around the end of the bed or you feel the mattress move when the dog scratches and makes that little thumping sound. True story!
And then there were the months when my son went through puberty. Phew! But I'm traveling further away from Masonry now.
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Post by methuselah on Nov 11, 2009 7:18:26 GMT
This leaves open the possibility that the NDE itself might have a possible biology basis. I prefer the spooky alternative of course. Good news for you then - I have actually seen 'a real live ghost' - and have no doubts whatsoever about survival of the death experience. Same here, a few of 'em, and not always pleasant. Not always discarnate people, either, but that's another issue. It is somewhat reassuring, and I do like your take on the Masonic Ritual quotes concerning this. Never had much doubt as to the life after death thing- I'm a bit of a mechanical geek, and the 1st Law of Thermodynamics demands it, but so do any of the esoteric laws we study. There are a lot of possible explanations for the near death experience, from an actual leaving of the body (which you can do while very much "alive," anyway) to biological reaction. Honestly, I don't think we're ever going to be able to prove that in anything other than very personal ways. That's kind of the downside to gnosis. Might not be worth beating yourself up over. I've generally found that they don't have much to say, and, in fact, I'm not convinced that this aspect of a deceased person knows much more about it than we do. ]
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 11, 2009 11:07:35 GMT
Maat, I chuckle too wondering what a 'real live ghost' may be! But seriously though your phrase 'survival of the death experience' is one to ponder on. I would think of that as different than a 'near death experience'. The survival part I think can vary from a left-over imprint from the dead to possibly a 'ghost' caught in between this and the great beyond. Your story reminded me of an experience when I was in my mid-20's and no where near along this sacred path I've been journeying. I was asleep and awakened to the presence of someone in my bed next to me. I knew instinctively it wasn't an actual person but the presence of one. I could even feel the weight of the mattress shift. It scared the holy s.... out of me, I was frozen and couldn't move and the only thing that stopped it was when a picture of my mother flew off the nightstand. She had passed away just a few months before, and I had had a few visits from her in my dreams, but the picture falling over was a most definite message to snap me out of it and it sent the 'entity' away. Never happened again after that. So I know visitations take various forms whether white and ghostly, in between realms or as a left-over psychic imprint. Nowadays when my husbands deceased dog visits us during the night I simply tell him in the morning that his dear departed little Buckers stopped by. He usually wakes me up walking around the end of the bed or you feel the mattress move when the dog scratches and makes that little thumping sound. True story! And then there were the months when my son went through puberty. Phew! But I'm traveling further away from Masonry now. Its strange that you report this. We lost my grandfather, my mothers father, in 2005. Though he had been in a great deal of pain, he was virtually comatose with only slight periods of consciousness when he passed. He went through the things that are so often described of reaching for the ceiling as if trying to grasp something, saying his mothers name over and over again and letting out a sigh and it was over. He passed at home in the house he had lived in for almost 65 years. Now my grandmother talks about seeing him around the house all the time and claims to hear him walking around or on the stairs to the second story of their house on occasion. But recently, (I live in my family home due to the economy)we have started to see and experience him here. The other night I woke to see him standing near my bedroom door, looking at me in this sort of comforting way he always had. And recently Ive started having the experience of feeling weight on the bed, just as if someone sat down next to me while I was trying to fall asleep. As I spent a good deal of my childhood living with my grandfather, he became known as Papa. When i feel the weight settle into the bed, usually near my feet. I say "Papa?" and the weight moves up as if he has gotten up and sat down closer to my head. Ill repeat "papa" and feel and overwhelming sense of peace, and then I can feel him leave. I would understand experiencing him in his own house, but in an entirely different location? In any case, I lovd him more than just about anyone, so he's welcome whenever he wants to stop by.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 11, 2009 19:26:50 GMT
A huge part of me wishes I could believe in this sort of thing.
Love and Light,
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Post by methuselah on Nov 11, 2009 21:08:35 GMT
A huge part of me wishes I could believe in this sort of thing. Love and Light, You pretty much have to see it for yourself. I'm generally pretty analytical and level- headed, so I'm careful where and in front of whom I discuss it.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 11, 2009 21:15:26 GMT
A huge part of me wishes I could believe in this sort of thing. Love and Light, Though we frequently quarrel, I ask this question sincerely: what is it that allows you to believe in alchemy and other esoteric concepts but doesnt accept that the veil between this world and the next may not be as rigid as we think it is. Another experience that seems to tie in to some of whats being talked about here: When my grandmother was recently in for knee replacement, she came very close to dying due to botched anasthesia and overdosing of pain medication suppressing her breathing. They gave her a drug to start to reverse the medications and she opened her eyes and became lucid almost immediately. When she did, she said that she had seen my grandfather and he gave her a talking to and told her to go back, that her children (my mother, aunts and uncle) werent ready to lose her yet. While she was in critical condition, all of us reported, of our own accord, talking to the...spirit if you will...of my deceased grandfather and telling him we werent ready to lose her yet. We didnt tell this to each other at the time we did it and there was no way she could have known. How do we account for such things and should we even try?
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 11, 2009 22:52:30 GMT
It is my belief that the purpose of magick and arcane arts is self transfformational change. This comes from within. In my experience I see this manifest itself in unlocking the biggest mystery of all, the hidden doors of the human brain, I believe deeply this is where Gnosis resides. The reason Godforms and such are used in an invocational sense is to unlock these inner pathways.
Alchemy is the means to an end along the same lines. The spiritual alchemy that deals with the chemicals of the human mind.
Is there a spirit? Perhaps, I'd like to think so. Do "ghosts" haunt the living? I have yet to see any evidence of it. I can think of some dearly departed loved ones I would love to be "haunted" by. If there is a way to make it occur let me know ;D
Love and Light,
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Post by theplumbtruth on Nov 12, 2009 17:10:29 GMT
It is my belief that the purpose of magick and arcane arts is self transfformational change. This comes from within. In my experience I see this manifest itself in unlocking the biggest mystery of all, the hidden doors of the human brain, I believe deeply this is where Gnosis resides. The reason Godforms and such are used in an invocational sense is to unlock these inner pathways. Alchemy is the means to an end along the same lines. The spiritual alchemy that deals with the chemicals of the human mind. Is there a spirit? Perhaps, I'd like to think so. Do "ghosts" haunt the living? I have yet to see any evidence of it. I can think of some dearly departed loved ones I would love to be "haunted" by. If there is a way to make it occur let me know ;D Love and Light, Alchemy may be the total explanation, as what we think we see or experience could be a chemical and biological change in the brain. Or perhaps not. My actual journey probably started when I was very young as all the women in my family had a very psychic connection to each other. It was simply understand and accepted by us. But from there I began to want to understand, why? And away I went down that road. Personally I've had experiences in lodge that I would consider out of my control and for me has been confirmation of greater forces at work be it TGA or God. As LoH described visitation from Grandpa is it real or is it Memorex? ;D Was the visit controlled by his desire to see Papa or was it a 'conscious' visit on Papa's part. The jury is out on that one. But I have not doubt whatsoever that the experience was real for him. The transformational journey we all travel within Masonry to me is absolutely just that. It's to what extent does that transformation happen for you, me or Joe Mason? Not that the transformation needs to include seeing ghosts, I believe that transformation happens differently per the individual. When I related the story of a visit from some unknown and unwelcome entity I was untrained on how to keep out what I truly believe are unseen forces that have no better purpose than to create mischief or worse. Over the years I've developed some better self protection which to me is equally as important in balancing the positive effects of the energies I have tapped into also. Or symbolically speaking, Tyling my Lodge. These days I only occasionally have visits from departed family and then only in dreams. I seem to have flipped the switch somewhere and now have dreams involving those preparing to leave this world for the next. It was disconcerting at first until I recognized the beauty of it. It gave me the opportunity to find a deeper lovingness towards these friends in helping them through their physical pains and problems while awaiting their imminent passage.
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Post by sammy on Mar 11, 2010 16:04:15 GMT
This book also pertains to out of body experiances but "Journey To Ixtlan" by carlos castaneda was a great perspective for this kind of thought, and he has also written a few books since.
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Post by sammy on Mar 11, 2010 16:23:25 GMT
HAHA interesting view... wouldnt be hard for him to pass as a spaniard at all and i dont think anyone would want to. Atleast not with juan screwing with you while under that many verieties of plants.
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Post by sammy on Mar 11, 2010 16:25:06 GMT
makes ya wanna feel bad for poor carlos.... almost
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Post by sammy on Mar 11, 2010 17:04:52 GMT
oh yeah they were a nasty pair. The thing with carlos's car in the second book was my favorite. his whole struggle with reality was great, but convincing someone you made their car dissapear and reapear on a big rock in the middle of a dessert... classic HAHA
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Post by maat on Aug 4, 2011 2:41:39 GMT
My dead cousin appeared in a dream and told me that there was a new baby being born into her immediate family. When I told her husband this he was gobsmacked, the parents to be had just found out about the pregnancy and apart from him nobody knew.
They were doubly gobsmacked when I told them who told me the news.
Fear not for the dead for all goes well with them.
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