mgc
Member
Posts: 204
|
Post by mgc on Nov 21, 2009 20:57:11 GMT
this is an xelent topic imo.. there r quite a few references linking hell to the material plane in literature, mostly veiled in allegory as usual..
hell could imo be compared to the (cor)rectional facility that is life.. the irony is that (most of) the "prisoners" r not aware theyre being held captive and corrected..
i dont understand how ppl can not develope a conscience..
|
|
|
Post by shemihaza on Nov 21, 2009 21:14:37 GMT
The following was posted on the thread "there is not hell" and is now offered as a springboard for discussion for our Brothers and friends. Some questions that could be addressed: - What are your thoughts about hell?
- What does/can hell represent to you metaphorically?
- What would you offer to others as an accurate description of a "hellish" experience that you have had in your lifetime, especially as applied to your metaphor for hell?
- Do you think the metaphors others share are an accurate description of your experience of hell? If so, how? If not, what's missing?
---------------------------------- Hell Yes I don’t expect everyone to understand this or to agree with what I write. I put this forth for those who can. Humans communicate through signs and symbols. Signs and symbols describe all sorts of things for humans, including specific states of being. Some specific states of being occur when humans experience guilt, shame, remorse, regret and a host of other emotions. Great topic; actually the original wasn't off, IMO. Although the topic was stated in a specific way, i.e., "there is not hell"...since we can choose to agree or disagree with the premise, I chose to accept the statement as the opinion of the author, even if he believes it as a fact. However, the questions posed here are quite excellent and hopefully we'll be able to have a good discussion before this gets closed. Hell is not a physical place but seems to be more a state of consciousness. However, I will note that Hell can be, and has been historically, a 'real' place for many, i.e., some Gnostic schools of thought ascribed to the notion that corporeal existence represented the "below" state of manifestation. Certainly, in any age, if one considers the corruption that exists when comparing any state to an abstract state of "perfection", one can certainly make the case that we are actually living on this lower plane, thus the existence of "Hell" can be real for many. As far as the idea of a Devil with hooves, using a pitchfork for the purposes of tormenting the souls of humans as they sail down the river Styx and over the waterfall with their cute parasols into Purgatory, well, I think that Dante may had something good to say, but the fantastic picture I've just painted, although one conjured up in my mind and influenced by the illustrations of 19th Christian literature that I was familiar with in my youth...it's a crock of bull. I like the "conscience" idea that you put forth, and certainly one can compare the notion of how "conscious" they are of that. Exalt! Therefore, the associations with "guilt" seem to be accordingly apt in this respect; there is a consciousness of one's actions, of one's integrity in the sense that if one's actions are not One with their personal philosophy, they will suffer harm not only to themselves but possibly cause it do be done to others. After all, our thoughts manifest as physical reality as those seeds of our subconscious minds bear fruit. If one plants weeds, don't be surprised when they take fruit and grow. A rather personal question, not one I'm sure I'd be comfortable sharing. There are too many pointing fingers over here that don't notice the three pointing back, I'm afraid. To put this perhaps in a more abstract fashion, I'd reiterate that I've experienced situations in which I had to make difficult choices that have affected everyone that I knew, especially my family and friends because of the wrong choices made by other people. It was a business situation involving corruption in my job where I was expected to look the other way, and I chose not to. Since there were real criminals involved, and I could not continue ignoring the actions of others, I did what I could to help prosecute whom I could by sharing information I had with those that I could help, but in the meantime removed myself and my loved ones from the immediate threat of harm. It had the personal consequences for me of suffering a loss of self-esteem for a few years, and although today I know I did the right thing, I wish I could have done more, although again, it would be at the risk of putting the lives of innocents in the way of real physical harm. I suppose that I'm fortunate to have had the opportunity to have had this situation presented to me...a valuable set of lessons. [/li][li]Do you think the metaphors others share are an accurate description of your experience of hell? If so, how? If not, what's missing?[/quote] This question is more problematic; I can't crawl inside somebody else's head, and so I don't know.
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Nov 21, 2009 22:11:17 GMT
"Those without conscience usually create hell for the rest of us."
Those who enforce their conscience on others have the same result.
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Nov 22, 2009 1:27:41 GMT
Those who enforce their conscience on others have the same result. I would have agreed with you had you used the word "opinion", "belief" or "morals" instead of "conscience." One cannot "enforce" one's conscience upon another; conscience is a personal creation and experience. That being said, if you had meant it as I would have agreed with you had you used words that I feel better capture the point, I do agree with what you are making effort to communicate; albeit with some minor adjustments for clarification. Those who shove their personal opinions, beliefs, and morals -- and in many cases "lack of morals" -- down the throats of others, who differ in opinion, belief and morals, rarely have any conscience formation that permits this to be done in a respectful manner. Of course, this is merely another way of saying what I said to begin with. Thanks for pointing this out by re-enforcing the point! One more thing: If you are going to use my words, please make sure you respectfully assign the proper source. Morals are subjective not objective. They are determined by external factors that are by no means universal.
|
|
|
Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 22, 2009 1:42:06 GMT
So would it be safe to say Brad that you are not a believer in Kant's concept of the Moral Imperative in which some things are wrong and they are always wrong.
|
|
mgc
Member
Posts: 204
|
Post by mgc on Nov 22, 2009 2:09:17 GMT
does 1 become corrupt, is 1 born corrupt or both?
p.s. i rarely assign sources.. especially not when its on the same page.. u guys.. get over it..
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Nov 22, 2009 6:29:06 GMT
So would it be safe to say Brad that you are not a believer in Kant's concept of the Moral Imperative in which some things are wrong and they are always wrong. That would be safe to say.
|
|
|
Post by middlepillar on Nov 22, 2009 12:46:53 GMT
However, the questions posed here are quite excellent and hopefully we'll be able to have a good discussion before this gets closed. First I asked P to start this thread after I locked the There is no hell Thread because I thought his post was excellent and well worthy of discussion. There is no reason to lock any thread until and unless it becomes hijacked by people wanting to use it as a platform to personally attack other posters, this takes it outside the rules of this Forum and will not be allowed. As you will all know I have had to delete quite a few posts, none of them being relevant to the topic and those in answer to any that were irrelveant have also gone. This is an interesting topic which has been given a sound platform for everyone to offer thier opinions, I hope I will not have to delete any more posts and the topic is discussed properly
|
|
mgc
Member
Posts: 204
|
Post by mgc on Nov 22, 2009 14:30:46 GMT
yes on which?
why do u think the words r not respected?
it would be inconvenient to assign sources unless i change my writing style from a line by line approach to the whole.. if they (the admin i suppose) would change the "quote" button to incorporate the name, id be fine with assigning sources on every quote..
i guess thatll be the latter..
if ud leave over that, u prolly wouldnt last in any forum..
based on not assigning a source? bit harsh dont u think?
to dry for me..
imo it depends on the violation..
i base my considerations on my own xperiences.. dont do to others what u wouldnt want done to u (orso).. i guess that means i dont care if u quote me without assigning source.. imo it doesnt matter whos words they r..
in some cases id consider it inefficient to obey all the "rules".. i suppose that means that sometimes ppl "suffer" cause of my actions for the sake of "flow", as u described it earlier..
and thank u.. most liberating topic ive seen in a while..
|
|
mgc
Member
Posts: 204
|
Post by mgc on Nov 22, 2009 16:15:04 GMT
lol, im afraid not.. ill just be fair and say yes.. an interesting question for my conscience.. do i respect others as much as i respect myself? yes, so dont assign sources unless "necessary" on my account.. though u, imo, take it to a point where it becomes counterproductive in your last post, i suppose the effort is commendable.. (i just realized this can be read in more than 1 way.. all have their merrits, lol) now i understand why those that dont develop a conscience dont feel "wrong" about it.. and vice versa, agreed? lol
|
|
|
Post by hopefully on Dec 9, 2009 4:17:45 GMT
Some people need not just divine reward but divine justice as well.
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Dec 10, 2009 1:16:47 GMT
Some people need not just divine reward but divine justice as well. Infinite punishment for finite "crimes" is an absurd notion.
|
|
mgc
Member
Posts: 204
|
Post by mgc on Dec 10, 2009 3:02:12 GMT
what happened to the other guy i was having this awesome discussion with?
|
|
KNOs1s
Member
I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
Posts: 1,330
|
Post by KNOs1s on Jan 19, 2010 7:01:32 GMT
Personally, I do not believe in hell except in the fashion that people can certainly make hell (or heaven) for themselves. I would say that infinite punishment (who said it was anyway?) is an 'absurd notion', yet it is well within human capabilities to create 'unending punishment' for themselves. This is partially the meaning of the Sisyphus myth. A mundane 'hell' is clearly possible, though the time frame is finite. When we talk about how long an event 'lasts', it is entirely possible that one second can seem like a lifetime and a lifetime like 'forever'. Torture and pleasure need last less than a second to last 'forever'.
|
|