Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 1, 2010 23:37:25 GMT
Bro. Chris, As this post was public, I guess your direction whereby: " If you want to just take the P do it in private" was an instance of, "Do what I say, not what I do."
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 2, 2010 0:04:38 GMT
Brother Chris, I think if sarcasm and cynicism were taken away we remove an important part of communication in Freemasonry. Voltaire, Paine, Twain &c. were arguably sarcastic and relayed important messages through that medium. Freedom of speech isn't allowing only what someone wants to hear the way they want to hear it. Debate and liberty has lead to greater justice for all. I understand what you are saying, yet it is not so simple as all that. I did not read the initial post you refer to, yet the concept remains the same.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 2, 2010 0:42:47 GMT
I too feel that there is no place on this Forum for that type of approach. It is contrary to the Masonic Principle of Harmony which should at all times encompass Freemasons. I remind posters of those words that most of us heard in some form or other when we were Initiated, ".... but if your differences be of such a nature as not so easily to be adjusted then it is better that one or both of you withdraw than that the Harmony of the Lodge be further disturbed by your presence"
If you wish to be sarcastic and cynical then I suggest that you consider setting up a Forum where that is the accepted norm. Can I also direct you to the old maxim, "one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar!"
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2010 1:07:00 GMT
1. This is not a tyled lodge, so that charge does not apply.
2. My humour (honey) was directed at one who is characteristically vulgar and abusive (vinegar).
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 2, 2010 1:25:46 GMT
If you have read much from Brothers that have come before, you will find that sarcasm is used often to get a person to think differently without forcing them to agree.
If it is the acceptable norm for all, I would agree wholeheartedly. Yet it seems there are some for whom a sarcastic and belligerent demeanor is the norm while (in my perception) everyone else is kept on a short leash. I think you would not find this acceptable.
On many other Masonic boards, sarcasm is used to good effect. This is because everyone is allowed to meet on the level. When one is held to other standards, we cannot meet on the level with them and it causes difficulty in meeting with each other.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 2, 2010 4:37:19 GMT
Like the man said, 'with great power there comes great responsibility' -
There are those who have a command of the English language both spoken and written, those who are able to use it like a rapier.
I have been accused a number of times of being harsh with words, I see them as you have described, but I have come to understand that not all see the world in the same way as I see it.
The Moderator [and I think I can claim to have done more Moderating than most] has to try and keep a balance between those who can use a rapier, and those who are not as adept in sharpening their tongue, or in this case their keyboard.
Because if we do not, the clever and the loud will always win every argument. That is Bullying.
Some members need a splash of protection and some can look after themselves.
Some only see what affects them, or applauds them, or detracts from their point of view.
The Moderator , has to keep the well being of the forum at the front of his or her mind, what any individual wants does not or should not come into the equation.
Being a Mod, is like being a Referee, whatever you decide, some will like it and some will hate it.
But every poster that signs up for this or any other forum, knows there is a Mod team. every member knows that team has to make decisions.
No one gets paid to do this, remember.
We can not have a vote every time one member disagrees with another. Therefore the only sensible solution is to abide by the decision of the Mod team.
Here on this forum there is a freedom of speculation on ideas and theories that would not be tolerated on some of the forum you have referred to. That is why they come here to discuss them.
There are many Masonic forum for everyone to choose from. 'The world is your Lobster'. As Delboy would say.
Some are mainstream, some are strictly mainstream, some are open to all but no non Masons, MFoL it is open to all.
There has always been a very open attitude to all ideas, but I have to say that this idea that it is constant open season on the Mods has to be looked at. I spend more time replying to critic' than discussing anything remotely to do with Freemasonry.
Maybe it is time we had some rules. I will be suggesting that complaints about Moderation can only be submitted by PM or email and are not for open debate. It make the job impossible.
But in this case I like the idea of clearing the air.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2010 5:08:01 GMT
Because if we do not, the clever and the loud will always win every argument. That is Bullying. Hyperbole aside, such is the nature of debate.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 2, 2010 5:18:45 GMT
Because if we do not, the clever and the loud will always win every argument. That is Bullying. Hyperbole aside, such is the nature of debate. Such is the nature of the Bully getting his own way. You would end up with just two Bullies battling each other. That is not what the founder wanted or indeed what the majority of the members want, I am confident of that. Every Parliament of the world has a speaker or similar, to make sure all are heard, without that control you would indeed have the Bullies controlling everything.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 2, 2010 5:31:23 GMT
I have not encountered an excess of heated debate here between groups and individuals, and myself have not participated in abuse of other groups, even though I am of what others call (sometimes in an insulting manner) 'Regular' or 'Mainstream Masonry'.
I understand that members of U.G.L.E.-recognized lodges are sometimes insulting of other groups, though I see it as fairly equal in my experience. I do not condone this type of action. I consider raw, brute force to be as 'bullying' as anything; even if unskilled.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 2, 2010 5:49:28 GMT
I have not encountered an excess of heated debate here between groups and individuals, and myself have not participated in abuse of other groups, .............. I consider raw, brute force to be as 'bullying' as anything; even if unskilled. I was offering an explanation and rebuttle to your comments I can only assume you had posts edited or deleted, otherwise the comment seems out of place. And to the heading of the thread; "Do what I say, not what I do."Which implies some kind of miss conduct. I have not seen Chris employ any such tactics, but it was felt there was a need for this thread. I thought while it was here I would explain and give my feelings. Especially after I was commenting strongly on another poster complaining about the Mods and those posts being deleted. I wonder could it be that member who gets this special treatment you mentioned, naaaagh that cant be right, it would mean the Mods are acting on the level, would it not ?
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 2, 2010 6:08:01 GMT
I have not encountered an excess of heated debate here between groups and individuals, and myself have not participated in abuse of other groups, .............. I consider raw, brute force to be as 'bullying' as anything; even if unskilled. I was offering an explanation and rebuttle to your comments Apologies. I did not mean to accuse you using raw, brute force. It was a general statement to suggest that 'bullying' need not come in well-formed arguments when a fist would suffice. In fact, most bullies I have encountered in my lifetime (often when stepping between them and their victims) were rather inarticulate. I can only assume you had posts edited or deleted, otherwise the comment seems out of place. I do not think my posts have been excessively edited or deleted. At least, I take no affront at having my posts deleted and do not clearly recall any of late. I'm not here to attack Chris or the mods. I do not know to whom you refer and could only infer meaning here. I did not create the post or title, I merely suggest that 'bullying' is sometimes done without finesse. Just presenting a 'devil's advocate' viewpoint here.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 2, 2010 6:22:03 GMT
I am aware of who titled the thread and you were aware I was referring to the title, so no I did not say you were here to attack Chris or the mods.
Again, I was replying to :
It seems reasonable that when a criticism is given that a reply may also be given.
And it is all done in good humour as I too can be a little Devilish. Your leash seems to be of adequate length me thinks.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 2, 2010 6:43:54 GMT
I am aware of who titled the thread and you were aware I was referring to the title, so no I did not say you were here to attack Chris or the mods. Again, I was replying to : It seems reasonable that when a criticism is given that a reply may also be given. And it is all done in good humour as I too can be a little Devilish. Your leash seems to be of adequate length me thinks. As stated, it is my perception, right or wrong. Either way, my opinion is just that and I can always chew through my leash if necessary.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2010 7:16:48 GMT
Some members need a splash of protection and some can look after themselves. Which of these is the grand and much titled Masonic Magus?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2010 7:21:29 GMT
Such is the nature of the Bully getting his own way. Do you propose we dumb down debate and give equal merit to every assertion?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2010 7:23:19 GMT
I consider raw, brute force to be as 'bullying' as anything; even if unskilled. Hear! Hear!
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2010 8:10:41 GMT
Maybe it is time we had some rules. I will be suggesting that complaints about Moderation can only be submitted by PM or email and are not for open debate. It make the job impossible. This point returns us to the opening post of this thread: Bro. Chris,
As this post was public, I guess your direction whereby: "If you want to just take the P do it in private" was an instance of, "Do what I say, not what I do." Surely when anyone, Moderator or whoever, posts a public criticism there ought to be a right of reply, especially where there is little to tell which hat is being worn at the time: As with someone implicitly acting as a moderator, yet accounting for their action as being, "personally ... not my cup of tea"!? Moderator positions are indeed voluntary: They are not compelled on a person.
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Post by middlepillar on Mar 2, 2010 8:33:16 GMT
Bro. Chris, As this post was public, I guess your direction whereby: " If you want to just take the P do it in private" was an instance of, "Do what I say, not what I do." I have only just come back on line after a day away, so I will now answer this post. First I find it strange that Tamrin you PM'd me and posted this pretty much closely together, why the PM if you wanted to make it public all the time anyway? Sarcasm when used as a rapier (Thanks Bill) is cruel and offensive, if used in conjunction with humour it can and of course should be tolerated. To criticise a moderators decision to remove a sarcastic and unpleasant thread that was posted solely for the purpose of taking the p out of a fellow member of this Forum is unbelievable, the arrogance shown to presume any moderator on any Forum would allow such discussion is incredible and shows a complete disregard for decency. It has often been said MFoL is the most open of Forums but a line has to be drawn. When someone posts just to deliberately wind another poster up it has to be controlled. As Bill has said everyone has signed up for this Forum and should know that the Mods decision is final. Please show where I do as I do and you must do as I say. Philip, this is the very first time I have ever used these words. If you do not like it please feel free to leave, you are not welcome if you continually want to just bait a fellow member just because his views are so opposite to your own. It has been admitted by other Forum members they are only here to wind a certain individual up, do you not feel this is perhaps the wrong reason for joining a Forum? There are members here who seem to think they have the God given right to say anything they wish but other members are not allowed that same freedom. The moderators on this Forum decide what Posts need to be deleted or edited no one else. I am really sorry if anyone is upset about this. For all of your information the Moderators agree 100% about this. Philip as you have made this public, I will publicly inform you that if you carry on with your attempts to ridicule other members of this Forum or undermine the Moderators, your account will be suspended.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2010 10:20:05 GMT
First I find it strange that Tamrin you PM'd me and posted this pretty much closely together, why the PM if you wanted to make it public all the time anyway? My PM was in response to your PM and my public post was in response to your public post. Where you effectively say, "Do what I say, not what I do," is where you say I should communicate criticisms in private, while publicly criticizing me!? I may or may not continue here as I feel is appropriate (as you may have noticed I had recently absented myself for a fair while). In response you may do whatever you and your fellow moderators feel is appropriate (hopefully guided by due process and natural justice rather than by capricious whim).
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 2, 2010 10:58:23 GMT
Some members need a splash of protection and some can look after themselves. Which of these is the grand and much titled Masonic Magus? The Mod team are in agreement, we must demonstrate that all members are treated the same. In order to do this the members must know that there is no favouritism toward anyone at all, that means everyone.The complaint has been aired and there has been discussion, perhaps you would be kind enough to point out the masonic forum where this would be allowed ? You can not win every argument. Even I can't do that. The member you have decided to mention had only over the past few days had posts deleted, but it was done after 100% agreement of the Mod Team. That member complained publically, and were told exactly the same as you have been told here. But this thread has been left, so one could make the argument that you are the favourite at the moment and you have received preferencial treatment. - I could - right now go back office and make this thread go away and none of the Mod Team would correct me I am sure, but it is left here so that it is a demonstration that the original complaint is incorrect.
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