Did Tarot cards exist before the 15th century?

[KNOs1s]

I am all for the idea of existence before the first documentation on most things, yet I wonder if Tarot was in existence prior to the Crusades. I have not found any substantial archaeological evidence for their existence prior. Does anyone have serious research along these lines?

[Quin]

I don't know Kevin.
How long have playing cards been around?

[KNOs1s]

From what I can tell, slightly longer than Tarot cards. So far, 7th-9th century China seem to be the earliest extant playing cards. Nothing I know of in the B.C.E. times, though there was definitely paper. If something existed to play 'cards' with, I'd be surprised if it were not made of at least as heavy a stock as the extant scrolls from that era and before.

[Quin]

Well, from my observation the formate between playing cards and tarot are similar. Though, really not much a card player or teller of tall tails. Nor, am I believer in the idea of there is a separation between Asian and European though, rather opting for Socratics idea of Universal Truth. But it's more like how look at the Truth that determines your perspective of the Truth. Perhaps, someone else is more adept on this subject.

[Quin]

Sorry about the Typ"O"'s people. I'm Dyslexic and I forgot to check my post using my digital reader.

[KNOs1s]

I've always felt that the world was much larger in ancient times than is commonly supposed, and with seafaring cultures and land-based trade routes there was a significant 'world-wide web' of sorts. There is archaeological evidence of peoples of Caucasian descent travelling to China and India. Playing cards could well have originated in China without significant difficulty. When it comes to paper games/cards (as opposed to stone, cloth, clay &c.), I am very much interested in knowing how early they existed. A game would not necessarily out last a document or religious scroll, yet it seems possible.

[Quin]

I agree, and I would add into that of lore and myths, as well as common sayings. Think about the song Yanky Doodle "Came riding on a pony, stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni". Seem silly at first, until you under stand that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on mule. Krishna wheres a peacock feather in his hat. so on and so on.

[KNOs1s]

Yes. Even today's popular conceptions of how the ancient world is perceived adds in modern myths, questionable speculations, &c. It's tough for people to claim what someone 20 years ago felt, even with their written words. To extrapolate 2k years should be done with a careful eye.

[Quin]

Again Kevin I agree. In away there are no new ideas, but rather with a careful eye we have a refining of ideas that can lead to a greater Truth. Though, It's unfortunate those how choose to turn and look with a blind eye at the truth, which so often lead to a corruption of the Truth, or intentionally misuses and twist, or speaks in half truths in order to make the buy in to their illusion of control. For Example, some of my former professors, as well as other parties, who have unprecedented access to and do research on On-line Venues, such as facebook, Might, interpreted what is said between two individuals, who are chatting, completely out of context, and then take inappropriate actions, which effects a persons interpersonal interaction a friends or someone they are dating.

[KNOs1s]

The thing about internet conversations is they can be looked at and shared easily by a plethora of people at the same time. Another good reason to choose words carefully and employ good rhetorical abilities as taught in Masonry.
Of course, I do not support the taking of inappropriate or unjust actions without allowing the individuals to explain themselves. If they choose to not offer vindicating information, the information available must be weighed in the balance.

[Quin]

True true Kevin, because not every eye is blind is without sight, and in that every eye with site is not blind in some way. It's how one navigates between the two, that allows one to come to an understanding of their Truth. Though, I do like the saying if your eye offends you, then pluck it out. (ha..ha...) I hope I don't come off as being two-faced, with this post, or looking at this as being one-sided. I guess to each their own.

[KNOs1s]

I don't know the details of the issues at hand. If fairness is the goal, we can just judge justly. There is no more to do. ;D

[KNOs1s]

If anyone has information on the earliest printing of any type of paper card (a small paper piece as opposed to scrolls) I'd like to hear from you.

[billmcelligott]

Have you tried asking Stephen Dafoe, I seem to remember it was one of his subjects.

[KNOs1s]

The thought crossed my mind. I think I asked him a related question before . I'll check with him. Thanks Brother!

[Zita]

I heard the Troubadours used it to safely carry information that might otherwise cost them their lives.

www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Tarot_de_Marseille
www.fourhares.com/index.html?tab=4

[KNOs1s]

As I understand it, the Tarot was possibly used as a banking system not unlike what you describe. In various combinations, an arrangement of cards could act as a check to regain funds place in trust before leaving for the Levant. It was definitely safer than carrying gold on your person. This could have been one possible use for the cards, though they could have served multiple uses.

[ruffashlar]

I heard the Troubadours used it to safely carry information that might otherwise cost them their lives.

The Troubadours have been accused of many cultural crimes, from disseminating the idea of Courtly Love to the rather more literal disseminations of Tantric lovemaking. Whatever the truth of such allegations, they are known to have composed songs, often on the spot, and must have possessed fearsome powers of memory. Therefore it's somewhat likely that they would have carried any precious information they might have in their heads.

Yes, Tarot cards, or their precursors, existed before the 15th Century. Does no-one sensible ever read Wikipedia?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_card

[KNOs1s]

Of course. Wiki states that the first known tarot cards were created between 1430 and 1450 , or the 15th century in common vernacular. Hopefully, readers will recognize the fact that the 1400s were the 15th century. No clues I've found prove beyond a doubt that tarot cards existed before the 15th century, and Wiki does not offer proof of such an assertion. It states that 'playing cards first entered Europe in the late 14th century', which is right before the early 15th century. I don't see how Wiki proves that tarot cards existed before then? If Wiki's the best evidence available, I think it supports 15th century as a likely, or at least possible, origin for tarot cards made of paper.

[ruffashlar]

Devil take my confounded powers of arithmetic! Avast, knave - you have vanquished me!

Ahem, sorry about that lapse into Middle English. The Wikipedia page on playing cards mentions the incidence of p'ai, that is, flat playing tiles from China, and in that country no distinction is made between tiles (such as those used for playing games of the type we know as Mah Jongg) and cards in the Western sense. Slips of bamboo such as those illustrated might be interpreted as being either, and it's a largely semantic distinction. There is another Wiki page which explores the Chinese contribution in greater detail.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_origin_of_playing_cards

Furthermore, the pieces used in Oriental games such as shôgi or Japanese chess, more closely resemble playing cards in the modern sense than chessmen. I can't say with any certainty to what extent, if at all, these Eastern uses of tiles/cards may have come to Europe by way of trade or cultural cross-pollination, and thereby influenced the development of Western playing cards.

My further apologies that the Wikipedia page does not seem to mention at all the Arabic playing card game of Naibs, which supplies napes, the old name for playing cards themselves. The closest reference is, "Playing cards first appeared in Europe in the 1370s, probably in Italy or Spain and certainly as imports or possessions of merchants from the Islamic Mamlûk dynasty centred in Egypt."