Did Tarot cards exist before the 15th century?

[KNOs1s]

I recognize that something akin to cards did indeed exist, yet I am in search of the earliest origins of tarot cards. I'm leery of Wiki as a complete source, and my supposition is that origin for tarot cards is unlikely to go as far back as the 12th century, and even for playing cards in Europe. The 14th century, as the 1370s would fall into, seems quite reasonable for playing cards, and a later origin for tarot cards seems possible. I'm just seeking the best information regarding tarot cards, and I'd accept if presented with solid documentation that Akhenaton used to play poker with bulldogs. ;D

[ruffashlar]

Sir, if you say and I say it, we need but convince one other for the fact of it to be plain and incontrovertible. For as the Chinese say, Three men make a tiger. ;D
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_men_make_a_tiger

[KNOs1s]

I don't believe it was a tiger at all. It was a rare albino panther, painted to look like a tiger. That seems most likely. ;D

[asiinja]

It is told that in battles between katholics and turkish people that they gathered at the nighfall and played dice and cards together as brothers, this was to decide the future of the next battle.

So in many ways you could say that playing cards was already a habbit in the times of the crusades.

If the well known " arcane or jipsy" tarrot cardplay comes from those times, I don't have a clue.

But there are others as well that fit more in those ages so I guees that it might be possible but I have no scientifical backup for that.

[ruffashlar]

It is told that in battles between katholics and turkish people that they gathered at the nighfall and played dice and cards together as brothers, this was to decide the future of the next battle.

Is this the original of the Christmas Truce?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

[knyhtengail]

I think that there is some tiny coincidence that continues to draw my attention to the original story of the so called "invention" of Tarot. This is the unusual reception of the Greek Emperor visiting Italy and Filippo Maria Visconti, duke of Milano in 1424. The story goes that immediately after this visit, Visconti commissioned the creation of a Tarot deck, paying something like 1500 ducatos for it's creation. An incredable amount of money...and on a whim? The interesting thing though is not the extraordinary price paid for the work but the sudden desire for it's creation from a man who had no previous knowledge or obsession with such things. It is with the meeting that I find interest as well. This was the Greek Emperor, the owner and preserver of the great library of occult knowledge at Constantinople! He supposedly came to Visconti seeking help against the Osmans, the very same people that would sack the city and destroy the library in 1453 (several years later). Did this visitor bring with him some interesting occult collection (a Tarot Deck or Primitive version for playing cards to entertain a duke?) that held a lasting impression on it's host? Is there any records of occult knowledge residing in the great library of Constantinople that the Emperor knew of that would suggest parallels with Tarot archetypes? Here is the web source, it may just be all fluff but it's fun to think about

trionfi.com/0/b/

[peter2]

Jan 18, 2014 8:47:23 GMT knyhtengail said:

... The interesting thing though is not the extraordinary price paid for the work but the sudden desire for it's creation from a man who had no previous knowledge or obsession with such things.

Paying a large amount of money for creation of something that may have little value is rather strange.  Perhaps the knowledge already existed and its value was known. 

[beersheva]

Bembine Tablet of Isis.jpg (178.09 KB)

The Tablet posits the attribution of the 3 elements, 7 ancient planets, and 12 Zodiacal signs to the Egyptian G-d forms found on the various Egyptian Temple walls. Levi, Westcott and M P Hall indicate the relations. The 22 major arcana of the Tarot Trumps relate to the 22 Hebrew letters, and the G-d forms of the Bembine Tablet of Isis.

[beejay]

The Bembine Tablet of Isis however seems to be Egyptian in style only, so it is not clear that its existence pushes back the origin of the Tarot cards.

[beersheva]

That's correct, that the TABLET was composed after the construction of the TEMPLE MOTIFS. But, my point was that the images on the multiple EGYPTIAN TEMPLE walls portray the ORIGINAL "IMAGES OF THOTH" or "TEHUTI" the primordial TAROT , which the BEMBINE TABLET shows to INITIATES the actual KEY to the EGYPTIAN astro-mythological-cosmological plan of the universe, according to Westcott, Levi and M P Hall. An initiate could, after visiting all the TEMPLES up and down the Nile and, knowing what the images on the walls signify, reconstruct the same plan, reconstruct the "deck" of 78 images of the TAROT.

[beersheva]

TAROT AND HERMETIC CABALA

The so-called "Major ARCANA" of traditional Tarot, representing the 22 letters of the Hebrew Aleph-Bet are also 22 of the "32 Most Holy and concealed paths of the Etz Chaim (Tree of Life)" written of in the Sefer ha-Yetzirah, or Book of Formation.

Each card of the Major Arcana represents one of the 12 Signs of the Zodiac, one of the 7 "ancient planets", or one of the 3 elements of Air, Water or Fire. The 4th element, Earth, being a pendent to the whole system, is not represented by any card within the Major Arcana. 12 plus 7 plus 3 equals 22 "Paths".

The other 10 paths are "the 10 S’firot, 10 not 11, 10 and not nine" and are represented by 10 cards each in the 4 suits of cups, wands, swords, and coins; symbolizing Water, Fire, Air and Earth, the 4 elements of the ancient philosophers. The 4 suits are also the 4 Worlds of Cabala, and signify the manifestation of the:
"TETRAGRAMMATON"
in the 4 Worlds, through the 36 decans of the 12 Signs of the Zodiac (plus the 4 ACES equaling 40 cards representing the 4 worlds of ten emanations each). Each card of the 56 Lesser Arcana (except the 16 court cards and the Aces) represents one decanate (10 degrees) of the Zodiac. The four Aces are the Roots of the four Elements, initiated in the S’fira Kether (Crown) in each World.

The court cards, 4 per suit, signify the:
TETRAGRAMMATON
operating in that particular World or suit. The Knight signifies the 1st letter of the NAME, the Queen the 2nd letter, the King---the 3rd letter, and the Princess or Knave--the last letter of the NAME--in each particular World. Also, each court card rules over 30 degrees of the Zodiacal light, and each Knave (or Princess) rules over 1/4 of the heavens circum-navigating the pole star.

The Keys to the interpretation of the various cards of the Tarot, consist in the knowledge of Hermetic correspondences within the 4 Worlds, and the Cabalistic placement of each card within the Etz Chaim, or Tree of Life.

[rynniel]

www.philipcoppens.com/sog_art3.html
Quite interesting article

[peter2]

There is some merit in projecting into the scenes of the major arcana. The results can be surprising and may indicate that the material of the tarot is ancient.

[sammy]

That is very cool for sure! History rocks hehe. I was noticing though, there was shapes or symbols on a lot of those pictures of tarot card. I had found older ones that didn't have the same obviousness, or none at all. Temperance has a triangle on the chest, the chariot has a square on his. The magician has the eternity symbol over his head. The high priestess has a circle on her head. The empress has the female symbol in the heart. There seems to be some kind of main shape for each card, which is somewhat different from others. Probably just an artists depiction, but is there any history to the shapes and characters?

[sammy]

Hard to see some of them on this pic, but it has all the cards.