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Post by corab on Mar 1, 2011 11:51:45 GMT
Morning Whistler, Corab - Such is our Masonry ref"Its purposes is the search for Truth. Thus, in Lodges, discussions and debates on social or religious questions cannot, under any circumstance, have any other purpose than that of enlightening its members and making it possible for them, through a fuller understanding, to fulfil their duties as Freemasons." In some Masonic Flavours I understand the discussion of Religion or Politic is forbidden?" Indeed it is -- see UGLE's Book of Constitutions, under Aims & Relationships of the Craft, p. ix 3. The first condition of admission into, and membership of, the Order is a belief in the Supreme Being. This is essential and admits of no compromise. 6. While English Freemasonry thus inculcates in each of its members the duties of loyalty and citizenship, it reserves to the individual the right to hold his own opinion with regard to public affairs. But neither in any Lodge, not at any time in his capacity as a Freemason, is he permitted to discuss or to advance his views on theological or political questions. (SOURCE: United Grand Lodge of England » Book of Constitutions. 2011. United Grand Lodge of England » Book of Constitutions. [ONLINE] Available at: www.ugle.org.uk/about-ugle/book-of-constitutions/. [Accessed 01 March 2011].) That may be so - and we don't disagree on that - but I think we both know that The V. Ills. Brn. Leadbeater, Wedgwood and Besant had what they referred to as 'the Master R.' (Ragoczy) in mind, and it is this religious belief that is referred to as THAOTF. With h.g.w., Cora |
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 1, 2011 14:43:04 GMT
Try Who is the Head of all True Freemasons?
Depends on how you receive the question ? it could be that there are only one set of True Freemasons, which would make all the others feel a bit prickly. Or it could mean , if you consider yourself a True Freemason , who do you consider is the Head.
Not wishing to buck this trend I will quote from UGLE Q&A section:-
Is Freemasonry an international order?
Freemasonry exists throughout the world. However, each Grand Lodge is sovereign and independent. There is no international governing body for Freemasonry.
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Post by corab on Mar 1, 2011 16:47:36 GMT
Try Who is the Head of all True Freemasons? Depends on how you receive the question ? it could be that there are only one set of True Freemasons, which would make all the others feel a bit prickly. Or it could mean , if you consider yourself a True Freemason , who do you consider is the Head. Not wishing to buck this trend I will quote from UGLE Q&A section:- Is Freemasonry an international order?Freemasonry exists throughout the world. However, each Grand Lodge is sovereign and independent. There is no international governing body for Freemasonry. Exactly Bill. That being the case -- as we all know and I would hope acknowledge -- I struggle deeply with the concept of THOATF, particularly with this part 'True Freemasons'. Having said that, the concept as I understand it is not an earthly one - no more than TGAOTU is. If there is such a thing as THOATF, then in my personal opinion it would be TGAOTU, and there is no need for that second "T" to be there, because His Light shineth ever in our midst, (howsoever deeply it may be buried). With h.g.w., Cora |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 1, 2011 19:34:24 GMT
That may be so - and we don't disagree on that - but I think we both know that The V. Ills. Brn. Leadbeater, Wedgwood and Besant had what they referred to as 'the Master R.' (Ragoczy) in mind, and it is this religious belief that is referred to as THAOTF. A point corroborated by the likeness depicted on portraits in some lodges. |
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Post by aogop on Mar 1, 2011 20:08:39 GMT
Thank you for responding everyone, this was exactly what I was looking for. I will have to read more about Ragoczy as I don't know anything about him.
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Post by corab on Mar 1, 2011 20:44:27 GMT
That may be so - and we don't disagree on that - but I think we both know that The V. Ills. Brn. Leadbeater, Wedgwood and Besant had what they referred to as 'the Master R.' (Ragoczy) in mind, and it is this religious belief that is referred to as THAOTF. A point corroborated by the likeness depicted on portraits in some lodges. Not LDH Lodges, mind. The optional preliminary ceremony of illuminating the portrait of THOATF is a practice which was deemed dogmatic by the Supreme Council and which, in line with our International Constitution, was decreed to be a non-permissible practice. It always was an optional preliminary ceremony, and the ritual itself was not changed. The ritual still provide two options at the Invocation: "We invoke your blessing, O ye Ministers of TGAOTU, and Thine, O Most Worth and Venerable MOW, who are THOATF throughout the world" or "GAOTU, we invoke Thy blessing, and Yours, O ye Ministers of Wisdom, Strength and Beauty." Such is the beauty of Freemasonry: there is a place for all of us. With h.g.w., Cora |
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Post by anubis on Mar 1, 2011 22:00:56 GMT
The one in 1784. (hence the inverted commas) Thought he was still alive?  *facepalm* |
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Post by anubis on Mar 1, 2011 22:02:29 GMT
Thank you for responding everyone, this was exactly what I was looking for. I will have to read more about Ragoczy as I don't know anything about him. You aren't missing anything. |
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Post by sid on Mar 1, 2011 22:26:29 GMT
Thought he was still alive? *facepalm* Sorry, got the *facepalm* übersetzung. My appologies to you Anubis, and one and all. “E. Francis Udny, a Theosophical writer, is of the belief that the Comte de St.-Germain was not the son of Prince Rákóczy of Transylvania, but because of his age could have been none other than the prince himself, who was known to be of a deep philosophic and mystic nature. The same writer believes the Comte de St.-Germain passed through the "philosophic death" as Francis Bacon in 1626, as François Rákóczy in 1735, and as Comte de St.-Germain in 1784. He also feels that the Comte de St.-Germain was the famous Comte de Gabalis, and as Count Hompesch was the last Grand Master of the Knights of Malta. It is well known that many members of the European secret societies have feigned death for various purposes. Marshal Ney, a member of the Society of Unknown Philosophers, escaped the firing squad and under the name of Peter Stuart Ney lived and taught school for over thirty years in North Carolina. On his deathbed, P. S. Ney told Doctor Locke, the attending physician, that he was Marshal Ney of France.” implizit.blogspot.com/2010/09/mysteries-and-their-emissaries.htmlThe book ‘The Comte de Gabalis’: www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cdg/index.htm |
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Post by anubis on Mar 1, 2011 23:52:36 GMT
Sorry, got the *facepalm* übersetzung. My appologies to you Anubis, and one and all. The facepalm was because some people really believe the guy is immortal, and running around on two legs today. |
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Post by corab on Mar 2, 2011 0:02:26 GMT
Sorry, got the *facepalm* übersetzung. My appologies to you Anubis, and one and all. The facepalm was because some people really believe the guy is immortal, and running around on two legs today. Tolerance, Bro.'. We all have our beliefs (or absence thereof) and are entitled to them. The point I was trying to make was that personal religious beliefs and practices should, in my opinion, not enter into Freemasonry. With h.g.w., |
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Post by whistler on Mar 2, 2011 7:47:20 GMT
In 1902 the Head of all True Freemasons suggested some English women join Freemasonry in France By this I gather you consider the HOATF to be a real entity and not just an allegorical abstraction. I Understand this statement was channelled through Annie B, Therefore makes perfect sense to me. |
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Post by whistler on Mar 2, 2011 8:00:31 GMT
REF: Not LDH Lodges, mind. The optional preliminary ceremony of illuminating the portrait of THOATF is a practice which was deemed dogmatic by the Supreme Council and which, in line with our International Constitution, was decreed to be a non-permissible practice.
In our Lodge even when we were part of LDH we have never had the optional preliminary ceremony.
LDH's comments about where we placed the picture of the man in our lodge was one of the many reasons the Eastern Order was created..
We honour the layout of our lodge as designed by CWL (which includes that pesky picture), when he came to New Zealand to create our Lodges.
Our ritual doesn't name the man in the picture.
As to the THOATF I am comfortable as one searches up the esoteric pecking order of Freemasons of all flavours, it will be possible to find a big Boss
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Post by whistler on Mar 2, 2011 8:10:15 GMT
Try Who is the Head of all True Freemasons? Depends on how you receive the question ? it could be that there are only one set of True Freemasons, which would make all the others feel a bit prickly. Or it could mean , if you consider yourself a True Freemason , who do you consider is the Head. Not wishing to buck this trend I will quote from UGLE Q&A section:- Is Freemasonry an international order?Freemasonry exists throughout the world. However, each Grand Lodge is sovereign and independent. There is no international governing body for Freemasonry. Bill Try thinking of all the Bodies of Freemasons with their different rules, customs and truths. - at heart they are all Freemason, none of those bodies have a right to claim exclusivity to the Spirit of Freemasonry. Perhaps somewhere in the ether there is an unseen Grand Overseer of all those Masonic bodies - it is in that layer it would be a good idea to consider a "Head of all True Freemasons" |
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 2, 2011 9:39:46 GMT
That is why I said ,it depends on howyou receive the question. It wouldseem we agree ? or have Imissed something.
As far as I am concerned "The Head of all True Freemasonry" is that small quiet voice inside your own Head.
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Post by sid on Mar 2, 2011 10:31:57 GMT
Sorry, got the *facepalm* übersetzung. My appologies to you Anubis, and one and all. The facepalm was because some people really believe the guy is immortal, and running around on two legs today. Ok, no problem. Thought I might have uset someone. Thanks. |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2011 19:50:23 GMT
The facepalm was because some people really believe the guy is immortal, and running around on two legs today. If Elvis still lives, why not St. Germain?  |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 2, 2011 20:02:42 GMT
By this I gather you consider the HOATF to be a real entity and not just an allegorical abstraction. Without yourself channeling, can you provide a credible source (e.g., Besant or a first-hand witness)? I had understood the suggestion was made by Francesca Arundale, on her return from France. |
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Post by whistler on Mar 2, 2011 20:21:05 GMT
That is why I said ,it depends on howyou receive the question. It wouldseem we agree ? or have Imissed something. As far as I am concerned "The Head of all True Freemasonry" is that small quiet voice inside your own Head. Bill I think we agree on many things. That small quiet voice is responsible for many many things |
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Post by whistler on Mar 2, 2011 20:28:32 GMT
OK Tamrin
Perhaps it was Francesca Arundale,
Regarding the channeling of information, I am indeed very familiar with the skill.
My wife is a brilliant Channel and the content of her channeling is most profound
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Corab - Such is our Masonry
