Lodges changing from LDH

[whistler]

I understand that the Memphis Lodge in Perth W. A. has left the LDH and joined another Head Office - I wonder if there are any other Co-Masonic Lodges who have changed "Head Office" recently

[huw]

Oh? To what have Memphis Lodge switched affiliation? Another well-known body, or some new start-up organisation?

[whistler]

Sept 13, 2011 1:54:37 GMT huw said:

Oh? To what have Memphis Lodge switched affiliation? Another well-known body, or some new start-up organisation?

The Eastern Order of International Co-Freemasonry
Here is their comasonic.net/

[huw]

Ah. Thank you, whistler.

I get the impression that the Eastern Order has done fairly well these last few years, attracting affiliation from some of those who have been dissatisfied elsewhere, but I don't know a great deal about it. What is the distinguishing characteristic which attracts people to the Eastern Order?

[whistler]

Hi Huw, nice to catch up with you again.

There was a complicated split from LDH some years ago for reasons that are not uniformly agreed upon on this forum even though
I have my views being actively involved at the time it is best to move on.
It was the perceived threat to tradition practices that began the break away.

In my experience the Eastern Order operates the Traditional Besant/ Leadbeater ritual, which works very well for us.

Also being smaller has a much smaller less demanding Head Office. Lets us concentrate on the Masonic teachings and not administrative nightmares


Suffice to say my rubric, and Masonic practices haven't change one bit since we split, and I really really love and get so very much from my Masonry. This would not have happened if we had remained with LDH

HGW
GO The ALL BLACKS

[huw]

Thanks again, whistler.

Perceived threats to traditional practices are indeed likely to cause trouble. It's a simple truth which usually comes as no surprise to anyone except the partisans of change.

[fractal3rd]

HI everyone,

I am South African, I belong to LDH - and we have managed to keep the traditional ritual by Annie Bessant. Anyhoo, if one is to say that tradition is not being kept well by other LDH lodges - then we must go back to the purest form of Masonry, of the Male Craft and that certainly does not have the Annie Bessant elaborate workings in it. However, LDH allows acceptance of those who don't believe in a supreme being, I do wish this would change this one thing. But thats my opionion.

O! btw way Whistler, The BOKKE are gonna win again! Yay! "Its the world in Union, the world as one. As we climb to reach our destiny. A new age has begun..."

[whistler]

Sept 16, 2011 5:50:32 GMT fractal3rd said:

HI everyone,


O! btw way Whistler, The BOKKE are gonna win again! Yay! "Its the world in Union, the world as one. As we climb to reach our destiny. A new age has begun..."

You had Susie to help you win - I am sure if we have to we can find some dubious tucker for the BOKKE in return

[huw]

Greetings, fractal.

Sept 16, 2011 5:50:32 GMT fractal3rd said:

LDH allows acceptance of those who don't believe in a supreme being, I do wish this would change this one thing. But thats my opionion.

As I understand it, that is changeable by each national federation, except insofaras you'd still have to accept visitors (from elsewhere in LDH) who are unbelievers. Of course it may take you a while before you're in charge and can do something about it! (But maybe I'm misunderstanding LDH rules, in which case no doubt someone will correct me.)

[fractal3rd]

Whistler Whistler Whistler LOL I like you, you're funny, how you doing... this last weekend was a revelation wasn't it - the Springboks gave Fiji such a hiding! 49-3 was it? I lost count Doesn't that make you nervious mate...

Huw - I just understood masonry to only accept men who belive in a God whatever He be. If that has changed then I feel that the principals on which the craft was founded are being slwoly eroded.

[huw]

Hi fractal.

Sept 19, 2011 6:36:48 GMT fractal3rd said:

Huw - I just understood masonry to only accept men who belive in a God whatever He be. If that has changed then I feel that the principals on which the craft was founded are being slwoly eroded.

Ah, well, there you touch on an issue which is highly controversial in some quarters. I don't particularly want to get into a long argument about it, because that too often ends in a flame-war in masonic fora. However, you're asking so I'll try to answer in a neutral manner.

Different organisations have different official views, and of course some members in every organisation dissent from that organisation's official view.

Here in UGLE, we stand by the principle you describe. We regard it as fundamental to the definition of freemasonry, and therefore we cannot recognise as freemasons those who reject this principle.

However, there are of course other bodies which disagree. As I understand the position (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), your own LDH takes the view at an international level that this principle is wrong and should not be enforced, but nevertheless allows each national federation to adopt a requirement for belief in God if it wishes ... so some do and some don't.

As to whether this disagreement represents an erosion of founding principles ... well, I'd go further and say that it represents outright denial of founding principles, but you'll certainly find others who vehemently disagree.

And I hope this post is acceptable to everyone as a balanced summary rather than a cause for flaming.

H.G.W.,

Huw

[whistler]

I would find it hard to work Masonry without a belief in a supreme being.
Having said that if somebodies supreme is a Coke Bottle, or a thousand winged angel - that is fine by me.

The question - " in whom do you put your trust" requires a personal answer - if we answer God - nobody ask for an explanation of our "GOD"
When we work at the altar - our Lodge has 3 Different volumes of the sacred lore. I understand in Singapore a lodge has Seven - and my personal favourite ( Which we don't have ) is a book of blank pages.

[huw]

Hi whistler.

Sept 20, 2011 2:03:58 GMT whistler said:

Having said that if somebodies supreme is a Coke Bottle, or a thousand winged angel - that is fine by me.

I know I'm pickier on the religious qualification than some others, but I reckon lots of us would have considerable difficulty about the Coke bottle. I'm sure it's part of the point that we should all know that one another is sincere in professing some sort of belief, whatever the details of that belief might be. If a Candidate professed belief in a Coke bottle, there'd surely be widespread suspicion that this was some sort of joke, not a genuine statement - and therefore, yes, I'd ask for explanation, in a way that wouldn't be necessary if someone asserted belief in some well-known religion.

Sept 20, 2011 2:03:58 GMT whistler said:

... my personal favourite ( Which we don't have ) is a book of blank pages.

I know some organisations do allow or even encourage that.

In UGLE, however, the use of a blank book has been explicitly ruled unacceptable. Our Candidates come from many faiths, but we do expect them to be able to name their faith and point to the Book which encapsulates it; a blank book is too vague, in my opinion, and my GL seems to agree with me about that.

H.G.W.,

Huw

[whistler]

Huw:
REF: 9/20/11 at 6:03, whistler wrote:
... my personal favourite ( Which we don't have ) is a book of blank pages.

For me it is very simple. The Supreme Being is within every cell of my body. so I certainly don't have to look far for it. I certainly don't need to look in a book written by somebody else.
So when I think of the Creator I can't "point to the Book which encapsulates" I can certainly point to any living Cell - or the Majesty of the Stars in the Sky - all of which for me personally makes a book far far to limiting.

[huw]

Hi whistler.

Of course this is one of the many things upon which different organisations have different views.

So far as I can tell, your view seems to be quite widespread these days. However, that sort of belief is what the original Constitutions meant by "irreligious libertine", which was deemed incompatible with freemasonry - the meaning of the words has drifted somewhat in the course of three centuries, but when Anderson wrote it, the phrase meant someone who didn't adhere to a defined formal religion.

Obviously that's okay in your Eastern Order, and I know it's also okay in various other organisations, but it's no secret that UGLE (and I) are rather traditionalist about sticking to our original plan. "You pays yer money and you makes yer choice."

H.G.W.,

Huw

[whistler]

Huw
Ref: what the original Constitutions meant by "irreligious libertine", which was deemed incompatible with freemasonry - the meaning of the words has drifted somewhat in the course of three centuries, but when Anderson wrote it, the phrase meant someone who didn't adhere to a defined formal religion.

Is there an official list of what was a defined formal Religion

[huw]

Hi whistler.

Sept 26, 2011 17:04:52 GMT whistler said:

Is there an official list of what was a defined formal Religion

No. In order to retain flexibility of decision for cases which haven't previously arisen, we have always avoided laying down any published list.

H.G.W.,

Huw

[whistler]

Sept 27, 2011 15:12:29 GMT huw said:

Hi whistler.

Sept 26, 2011 17:04:52 GMT whistler said:

Is there an official list of what was a defined formal Religion

No. In order to retain flexibility of decision for cases which haven't previously arisen, we have always avoided laying down any published list.

H.G.W.,

Huw

doesn't this suggest a little arrogance - That would make a Hindu, Christian, or Muslim Freemason, sit in judgment on the religious validity of a Baha'i or Buddhist's Masonic applicant's faith.

[billmcelligott]

I think Huw is just giving you the official view. there is no list.

if there were a list, that would suggest arrogance.

There is no rejection crteria other than the one question, 'do you believe in a supreme being' ?
There is no where on the UGLE application form that asks what your religion is. Certainly I have never been asked.

If you are unable to answer Yes, then there are many other Masonic Orders that are open to the candidate. And so there should be.

[FireMist]

In asking if they believe in a supreme being, the person being interviewed 90% of the time volunteers what they believe in. I let them talk, but don't ask further questions or comment.

Anne Bessant workings; Anderson Constitution. I've not seem them, but I understand both have little to do with our ritual.
Irregardless, I wonder if in the caverns the Dead Sea scrolls were found, if there were any notes on ritual