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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 12, 2006 14:26:53 GMT
The never ending and eternal battle of logic and facts against total and utter bollocks. well ruff you could always start using logic and facts ;D?
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 12, 2006 17:45:46 GMT
The brother who asked me to find my interpretation wrote :
See the following; old testament, Book of Joshua, verse 10... 10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.
......hook line and sinker come to mind
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 12, 2006 20:57:24 GMT
Found this by Wilmhurst :
The Sign. This is a single Sign wth a threefold gesture. It is probably the oldest Sign in the world, being traceable to every ancient country and race. Like our other Signs, having no possible relation to the operative builder's trade, it must he regarded as connected with spiritual science and the education of the soul. This is confirmed by our Ritual's reference to its having been used at a time when Joshua was "fighting the battles of the Lord,"* [*In many Lodges a serious error is perpetuated in saying that the sign was "used by Joshua in the Valley of Jehoshophat." For this there is no biblical or other justification. The passage in Exodus 17, 10-13 has been confused with that in Joshua 10, 11-13. In the latter passage no mention of a sign is made; in the former a sign, but not that of our Degree, was given by Moses on the heights whilst Joshua fought in the plains ("Rephidim') below, not in "the valley of Jehoshopat" as often wrongly worded.] an obvious reference to the conflict between the good and evil, the higher principles and the lower tendencies, in man himself. But the Sign is far older than Hebrew history and embodies a host of ideas that cannot be explained here. Indeed a whole treatise might be devoted to the Masonic signs in even then exoteric significance, but their vital interpretation becomes known only to those who learn it from a qualified teacher or by private experimental use of them. For once more it cannot be too earnestly repeated that all our Signs are provided for private use out of Lodge as well as for ceremonial use within it, and that they arc not mere formal gestures but acts of worship, into which one's understanding must enter so fully that the outer signum becomes a faithful reflection of the habitual quality of mind of him who uses it. It is one thing, and a vain one, to give a sign in ignorance of what it means; it is quite another, and one of potent value, to give it "with intention", with full awareness of its implications and as a sacramental reflex of one's spiritual condition. Whoever has learned to do this will know how extremely appropriate and valuable our Signs are, and to what varied and beneficent purposes they can be applied. Now the First Degree Sign implies (among much else) humility; the humbling (to the point of removal) of the head or natural carnal reason in the presence of the great mystery of Being, of which we, as initiates, are seeking to learn something. The Second Degree Sign, on the other hand, refers (also among much else) to the need for purity, fidelity and perseverance of heart in the pursuit of that mystery. In each case these virtues humility, purity, fidelity, perseverance - must become the habitual ingrained features of the Mason's soul, which then will of itself become a living sign, apart from any physical gesture he may casually use. On a previous page we referred to the question in the E.A. Lecture "How do you know a Mason by day?" and to the answer, "By seeing him and observing the sign";- not merely the ceremonial sign (which no one goes about publicly displaying), but by instant insight into his inner being and observing whether it exhibits the virtue to which that sign relates. And as no Mason may enter his earthly Lodge unless duly clothed and in possession of the appropriate sign, so we may be assured that on the higher planes of life he will be unable to gain entrance to the Grand Lodge Above if his soul fails to exhibit those inward Signs of grace which the bodily ceremonial signs are meant to he a reflex expression. Let us reflect now for a moment upon what we call the Sign of Perseverance. Perseverance in the work of the Masonic life is every Brother's duty; in the First Degree every Candidate pledges himself to "persevere". In this Degree the duty of perseverance is still further emphasised by a special sign. As previously mentioned, motion (which involves perseverance) is inseparable from life; hence in one of its many implications our Sign of Perseverance is the equivalent of the ancient pastern Swastika, the emblem of perpetual motion and of the eternally persevering Divine Energy - whirling into manifestation and differentiating itself into creatural life and form. Observe that, like the Swastika or Fire Cross, our Sign displays a series of squares, built up out of horizontal and vertical lines, and therefore is specially appropriate to a Lodge which is "opened upon the Square". Everything in Nature tends to evolve from the horizontal to the upright and to comply with the principle and the form of the builders' Square. The Great Architect's Compasses define the circular area in which Nature is to work. Thereupon she begins to "lay down levels and prose horizontals" and afterwards to erect vertical lines at a right angle to them. She prepares the level strata of soil and sedimentary rock, and then, as if dissatisfied with these, the volcanic energy of her fiery centre proceeds to tilt them on end to heave up Mountain peaks in an effort to attain an upright position. Look at a mountain pine-tree, the most primitive, the most "perfectly erect" and, in virtue of its erectness, perhaps the most graceful of trees; it is Nature's first effort to set tip a vertical vegetable at a right angle to the earth's mineral surface. Every spire of grass stands at a right angle to the soil it grows from. Horizontal reptiles, worms and creeping things, learn eventually to stand up and evolve at last into the vertical biped. With what immense and patient perseverance through axons of time, has Nature succeeded in producing from protoplasmic slime a creature able to "stand perfectly erect", physically and morally, and capable of himself continuing that perseverance still further--from Nature to Nature's God! "The capacity to stand erect (says Tagore in his Hibbert Lectures for 1930, ['The Religion of Man'] has given our body its freedom of posture, making it easy for us to turn on all sides and realise ourselves at the centre of things. Physically it symbolises the fact that while animals have for their progress the prolongation of a narrow line, Man has the enlargement of a circle. As a centre he finds his meaning in a wide perspective and realises himself in the magnitude of his circumference". Hence the propriety and deep significance of our Sign of Perseverance. Nature has perseveringly built man's body to the state of erectness and provided him with a physical vehicle to the limit of her powers. There her work ends; from that point she leaves man to continue the building work with like perseverance and to promote his own advancement to spiritual heights beyond her jurisdiction. A man standing in the position of the Candidate about to be entrusted with the secrets of this Degree is Nature's finished product. She leaves him now to continue her work himself, to carry it on to still loftier heights, to become the shaper of his own soul, the squarer of his own living stone, to which work he must apply the same perseverance as did Nature from whose quarry lie has been drawn. Hence we are given this Sign of Perseverance. No wonder that this sign is of such age and universality ; no wonder that the earliest guardians of our race taught it to primitive man from whom it has reached us Masons of to-day, still providing a clue to secrets and mysteries of life. In all ages and lands, barbaric and civilised, it has served as an act of prayer, worship, self-dedication; whilst for Initiates it is of potent use in other ways,-ways to which the rule of silence attaches.
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 12, 2006 21:51:40 GMT
Love to read Wilmshurst! I did note the following: "the duty of perseverance is still further emphasised by a special sign. As previously mentioned, motion (which involves perseverance) is inseparable from life; hence in one of its many implications our Sign of Perseverance is the equivalent of the ancient pastern Swastika, the emblem of perpetual motion and of the eternally persevering Divine Energy - whirling into manifestation and differentiating itself into creatural life and form." This ties in quite well with the thread regarding anticlockwise motion as a symbol. "The science of Yantra ('junt-ruh') is the ancient yogic study of symbols and forms and how they affect the mind and the wider environment. That branch of knowledge asserts that the counter-clockwise swastika will lead to permanent victory, while the clockwise-rotating symbol will lead to annihilation. www.flickr.com/groups/swastika/discuss/101287/"
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Post by maat on Sept 12, 2006 22:49:04 GMT
" With what immense and patient perseverance through axons of time, has Nature succeeded in producing from protoplasmic slime a creature able to "stand perfectly erect", physically and morally, and capable of himself continuing that perseverance still further--from Nature to Nature's God!" - Wilmshurst via Staffs A synchronistic post for me... thanks Staffs. Very recently several of my Brn became aware of the SD being closely associated with desert sand whilst the JD was actually submerged in water. We didn't quite know what to make of it.... came out of left field. But you post above Staffs throws quite a light on the subject. Again we are reminded that on all levels - Life and Lodge are progressive.... Maat
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Post by maat on Sept 12, 2006 23:59:09 GMT
The never ending and eternal battle of logic and facts against total and utter bollocks. Fifteen Love, Advantage Utter Bollocks. Here Ruff, Ruff, Ruff.... ;D Logic: Cold water freezes faster than hot water! Hot water may freeze faster than cold water; the Mpemba effect (logical scientists have even given it a name) The ability of hot water to freeze faster than cold seems counter-intuitive as it would seem that hot water must first become cold water and therefore the time required for this will always delay its freezing relative to cold water. However experiments show that hot water (e.g. 90 °C) does often (but by no means always) appear to freeze faster than the same amount of cold water (e.g. 18°C) under otherwise identical conditions. This has been recognized even as far back as Aristotle in the 4th century BC but was brought to the attention of the scientific community by the perseverance of Erasto Mpemba a schoolboy at Iringa School, Tanzania, who refused to reject his own evidence, or bow to disbelieving mockery, that he could freeze ice cream faster if he warmed it first. May we all learn a lesson or two from Erasto Mpemba! Forty-one Anomalies of Water (.. we are mainly water) www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/anmlies.htmlLove Logic - Advantage "who would have thought..." Maat
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 13, 2006 11:46:54 GMT
Hey Bill I'm curious, how do you apply what you describe as logic and facts to metaphysical and spiritual concepts?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 13, 2006 13:34:53 GMT
Any bets on freemasonry not being of Christian origin.I'm not a gambling man. That's why I'd put five hundred thousand billion pounds on it. Does that mean you do think it has a Christian Origin or not. ?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 13, 2006 13:42:21 GMT
Hey Bill I'm curious, how do you apply what you describe as logic and facts to metaphysical and spiritual concepts? Well Jim, I did not actually say that , but I am happy to go with it. Without fact it remains an opinon. You may well be entitled to that opinion and belief, but without fact we must rely on logic " is this possible, is this feasible?". Otherwise you have "well it did happen cos Jim said so". Even in the metaphysical and spiritual, if its just you, your a looney! if its 50 of us - its a cult! if its millions, we have just founded a dynasty. To express what you think and feel there must be an element of logic and fact, the rest is belief.
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 13, 2006 15:01:14 GMT
I couldn't agree with you more in regard to the above statement! This realization emphasizes the need to study and determine the origins and meanings of ancient myth and symbol. The esotericist endeavors to do just that by comparing different traditions, cultures, mythologies, religions, etc. What at first may appear to be an historical account of a supernatural phenomenon, may actually be the use f symbolic language and expression to attempt to describe a metaphysical concept. The logic and reason may only truly be seen by understanding the purpose and meaning of the symbol. In the FC degree, as we are currently discussing, the story of Joshua, through prayer, stopping the movement of the sun in the sky is pure bullocks, to use your term. To understand the story as allegory and not historical fact, as it defies not only the laws of physics but of rational thought as well, provides a much different understanding of what the 'battle of the lord' was all about. The battle itself need not be historical either but a symbol for in inward struggle within the self. The sun as a symbol within masonry in general and the allegory of Joshua in reference to the 2nd degree in particular is an important one to contemplate. I think you might enjoy reading the following paper in its entirety: SPIRITUAL SYMBOLISM of the SUN AND MOON by ALVIN BOYD KUHN www.theosophical.ca/sunandmoon.htm" The (apparent) annual revolution of the sun about the earth, or more properly the course of the sun through the four seasons or four quarters (twelve signs) of the zodiac, was the entire symbolical basis of ancient religious systematism. The divinity in man was typed by the sun, and the sun's yearly experience in its journeying was made the outward typograph of the experience of the spirit in mortal man."
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 13, 2006 17:40:23 GMT
I didn't use the term B***ks. Anyway, we come to that mysterious thing Faith. If indeed you believe in god, the supreme being . It should be of no surprise that he. The creator of all things could in fact stop the sun and moon. Should he so desire. Joshua 11 As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites. 12 On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon." 13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!
So we see that according to the most accepted record of events in that time the Lord was responsible for the defeat of the Gibeonites.
supporting facts come from Josephus : Great stones - That is, hailstones of extraordinary greatness, cast down with that certainty, as to hit the Canaanites and not their pursuers the Israelites. Josephus affirms, that thunder and lightning were mixed with the hail, which may seem probable from Hab 3:11. They had robbed the true God of his honour, by worshipping the host of heaven, and now the hosts of heaven fights against them, and triumphs in their ruin. Beth - horon lay north of Gibeon, Azekah and Makkedah, south, so that they fled each way. But which way soever they fled, the hailstones pursued them. There is no fleeing out of the hands of God! www.ccel.org/w/wesley/notes/notes/Joshua.html
I am always amazed at those that find mystery and mystic in many things, then wonder why the creator of the everything might have a problem with physics ?
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 13, 2006 19:04:20 GMT
As my father is fond of saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". For those exoteric, literal types that doesn't mean he owns a thirsty horse, or any horse for that matter.
Bill, just out of curiosity, did you read the paper from the link I provided?
Also here's a simple comparison - how old were you when you found out there was no santa clause? Then how old were you when you realized that santa clause was a symbol for something far deeper? Does the magic and miracles surrounding this Christmas myth make the story historical fact because God has the power to make it so?
I can't imagine any academic, literal biblical fundamentalist or not, would in good conscious say that the words of Josephus posted above is proof of God interacting in such a manner with mankind.
I have often wondered what literalists think of the fact that this type of Divine interaction is no longer a part of life today. Too bad giant hailstones can't irradicate all terrorists and the such.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 14, 2006 1:56:21 GMT
thanks for reminding us, ruffashlar, of Love's advantage.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 14, 2006 15:57:58 GMT
As my father is fond of saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". For those exoteric, literal types that doesn't mean he owns a thirsty horse, or any horse for that matter. Well I know I pretend to be dumb , but trust me I ain't. It means , what it says, it is only the 'esso terrifics' that make it more than it is. I glanced, read most of it before. Remember even Egyptians were split over the omniscience of one God in opposition to many Gods. Its all a matter of belief. You believe in what you believe and i in what I believe. Good job its simple. I'd be lost otherwise. 1) Who said there is no Santa Claus ? 2) Santa can be many things to many men. To me he lights up the eyes of my Grandchildren, I shall content myself with that. 3) God has nothing to do with Santa. 4) If you mean the 'Christ Mass' it means a lot to those who believe, why shake that tree. It certainly is not a myth to Christians no more than Easter is. I thought I said supporting facts, which means that another person repeated the same or similar fact that was reported by the first. If you want to split semantics I'll not call it a fact , I'll call it a happening. But you said that it was impossible for this to happen, I gave you two separate accounts recorded in different places at different times. You and I were not there we can only be guided by the reported or supposed facts. A preponderance of the evidence. Who said I was a literalist, my Wife is a Spiritualist, but I dont hold it against her. I'll come back to this later.
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 14, 2006 16:33:15 GMT
I'm a Christian who interprets both Christmas and Easter mythologically and symbolically. And I can assure you there are many other Christians with the same opinion. What do you think of these interpretations? THE STABLE AND THE MANGER www.theosophical.ca/StableManger.htmEASTER : BIRTHDAY OF THE GODS www.theosophical.ca/easter.htmCan one still be a Christian while agreeing with these interpretations? Bill I think that we are looking at opposite sides of the same coin. I should also state that I don't hold anything against literallists either, so long as they don't try to limit my personal freedoms.
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Post by a on Sept 14, 2006 16:33:44 GMT
Bill
re "Esso terrifics" in theory everyone who has been passed not only studies but hopefully learns to see, feel, and if sufficient progress on the ashlar is made and proves responsible enough to handle esoterics.
This little bit of the ritual which as I understand it authorises the initiate to study the hidden mysteries of nature and science. If this is neglected then all you have is a passed candidate, and subsequently MM, who has seriously disrupted the esoteric flow of the Craft and failed to grasp one of the most important things that Freemasonry has to offer. A vital component of climbing the old rungs of the ladder you know. Yet if done incorrectly can do heaps and heaps of damage. In case you are wondering how neglecting this does so much damage to the esoteric flow of the Craft it is simple - how can anyone pass on the knowledge of the Mysteries if they have not felt them themselves? And if your Freemasonry has no interest in exploring the mysteries, then why ritually encourage (as I understand it) their study? It ain't mumbo jumbo.
Just my opinion obviously.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 14, 2006 19:40:22 GMT
Jim and Stewart
Yes your right jim we are looking at things from two sides. I'm looking at it the right way up , you have to decide which way yours is hanging.
Like I said its all a question of belief.
What I have a problem with is, no good going rond the houses here.
You both talk down to people. you use phrases like.
What your really saying is only clever people like me could possible understand these things.
These are old debating tricks employed by many who wish to prove their point. Your points are valid and do not need such manipulation. Just make the points without the putdowns.
With regard to Christ, Easter, etc. I believe there was a man called Jesus, who if he was not the son of God most certainly was touched by the breath of God. One man , 2,000 years and still going. What are the odds against anyone remembering what we say here next week. So there just had to be something there. I dont try to explain what I cant prove. It is just there.
I believe that there are things in this world that are far beyond our feeble comprehension. I believe that if God wanted to stop the sun the moon and Stewarts posts he would.
I believe that God is within you around you above and below you. I believe he is the string that binds it all together.
Talking of string have you lisened to the 'Encyclopaedia of Everything' Lecture.
With regard to the Fellowcraft sign. Shielding the heart has been a sign of protection for many many centuries there is no mystery in that. It is the most vital part of the body so shielding it was common place.
It was common in the many communities to hold the hands aloft when praying to God. To leave one aloft whilst shielding the heart does not seem a great mystery to me.
How else does Gods creature beseech his Lord but by holding up his hands and looking toward heaven.
Look at any person in distress and you will see an almost impulsive gesture of holding up the hands and asking, God why me.
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 14, 2006 20:08:08 GMT
Right now a little to the left.
I can assure you Bill that I am not talking down to you, or anyone else for that matter. The first quote was an example of metaphor to illustrate that a literal interpretation of words is not always the correct one. The second quote is just what it is - a simple comparison. Note I did not say "here's a comparison for simple people". BIG difference.
I would also like to add that comments like " I'm looking at it the right way up , you have to decide which way yours is hanging", is far more arrogant because it is the same as saying 'I'm right and you are wrong. And how about the derogatory and sarcastic term you obviously consider clever - "Esso terrifics". You may need to consider your own words brother.
No I'm not. What I was trying to do was engage you in conversation which could possibly benefit us both by understanding one another's perspectives more fully. I'm not sure why you have such a large chip on your shoulder or why you feel I look down on you. If it's just a personality conflict do us both a favor and refrain from replying to my posts and I will extend the same courtesy.
Regardless of what you may think of me I truly wish you well in life.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 14, 2006 21:07:16 GMT
Jim I have a skin as thick as any Rhino, so please dont worry on my behalf. I agree, I try to be humorous and sometimes that comes over as taking the P.
Its not personal, its the concept that esoteric Freemasons have some wondrous light that us poor dim witted ordinary Freemasons just dont get. I respond on behalf of the 320,965 other Freemasons under UGLE. Might be a few less ?
And your right I am always right, its a failing of mine.
I shall in future try to make my comments either more obviously humorous or not say them at all.
But you are correct Jim , if we both think a little more before we type we will create a more pleasant intercourse. Again we agree we have today improved each other a little.
What we think we type is not necessarily what comes out the other side.
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Post by a on Sept 14, 2006 21:41:10 GMT
Bill hang on a minute What your really saying is only clever people like me could possible understand these things. No Bill I am not. You made the assumption about what I was saying. By now I would have hoped that you would have realised that I have struggled enormously with what I have come to know about Freemasonry. I could have decided to leave the rot to continue, but I decided to offer a helping hand to the worldwide Masonic community at what is perhaps their greatest time of need for generations. I did not ask for my knowledge, it came after a lot of hard, what I now understand to be Masonic, work. If I were as you say, why do I spend so much time helping individual Freemasons, and others, find their way? Why do I keep pointing out that it is within everyones grasp if they choose to do The Work? Why do I tell you, and everyone else how to do it? Why do I use my own life experiences as an example which others can learn from? I realise that it must be a bit of a shock to the Masonic system to have a rejected candidate come to know and understand, to actually have the answers to turn the fortune's of the fraternities around and to be able to help individual Masons in times of need. But such is. There are those in your fraternity and in others who knew this about me long before I understood it myself. Funny how life works sometimes.
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