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Post by a on Sept 14, 2006 22:08:25 GMT
Its not personal, its the concept that esoteric Freemasons have some wondrous light that us poor dim witted ordinary Freemasons just dont get. I respond on behalf of the 320,965 other Freemasons under UGLE. Might be a few less ? Bill, is Freemasonry not a place where as you travel (as in do the Work, practice the Craft, not the meaning of visiting other lodges) you learn how to take steps up the ladder? If so then almost by definition some are going to know more than others, for they have travelled up more steps. But then is it not their duty to illuminate the way for those who follow? Perhaps the 271,000 (274k?) or so (excluding those with dual memberships) UGLE Masons could benefit from considering that there might just be more than they have found so far, more which is within their grasp, and which while being in their ritual (eg the hidden mysteries bit) is as I understand it, actively taught in many other parts of the Masonic world. Even as far as I am aware in some parts of the wider UGLE system. The esoteric is clearly laid out in the second degree - hidden mysteries of nature and science. Believe me Bill it is a lot of fun, though also a bit scary, unwravelling them. Let me ask you Bill, how does your lodge guide and assist it's members do what they have been encouraged to do in the second? How do you investigate the hidden mysteries?
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Sept 15, 2006 3:23:45 GMT
Any bets on freemasonry not being of Christian origin.
I'm not a gambling man. That's why I'd put five hundred thousand billion pounds on it. "Does that mean you do think it has a Christian Origin or not. ? "
I'm not a gambling man. Ergo, I'd only put my money on a sure thing which I knew to be true.
Of course Freemasonry has a Christian origin! There is so much evidence to indicate it, and nothing more than empty theories to the contrary, that no-one who values facts and reasoned guesswork over wild made-up ideas could take anything else from it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 8:40:02 GMT
But ruff, the question was "Any bets on freemasonry not being of Christian origin."
You have to include the question with the answer.
So if you answer "That's why I'd put five hundred thousand billion pounds on it. " Then you could make a case for it meaning "not being of Christian origin".
You see how I cleverly laid a trap, its just a bit of word fun. [to quote Danny Kay " I'm a little Rascal ain't I"]
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 15, 2006 12:04:10 GMT
Is Freemasonry of Christian Origin? Im my honest opinion no. I feel that it predates the Christian Era. That having been said it has used Christianity as a vehicle for hundreds of years. The KTs were of course Christians, and I would assume that many of those in the Operative Masons Lodges of bygone days were also of the Christian Faith in one of its many variants. In UGLE from its formation in 1813, the Duke of Sussex- the first GM thereof -stripped out a great deal of the Christian aspects but these can be found in the some of the Higher Degrees such as KTs, RCC, Rose Croix, KTPs, and especially so in Royal Order of Scotland =St John's Masonry.
Some people try to find a Christian allegory in the Martyrdom of Hiram Abiff although unlike Christ there is no claim that he rose from the dead although of course he was RAISED from the Grave.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Sept 15, 2006 12:17:54 GMT
"Any bets on freemasonry not being of Christian origin."
I don't think you're half as clever as you think you are, Bill. Now that could be taken as meaning, you're a lot more than half as clever as you think you are. But you know I don't mean that at all. That's called idiom.
Any bets on freemasonry not being of Christian origin
means
I'm absolutely certain freemasonry is not of Christian origin.
Steve, Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and I will not take you to task over yours.
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 15, 2006 12:20:30 GMT
"Any bets on freemasonry not being of Christian origin."I don't think you're half as clever as you think you are, Bill. Now that could be taken as meaning, you're a lot more than half as clever as you think you are. But you know I don't mean that at all. That's called idiom. Any bets on freemasonry not being of Christian originmeansI'm absolutely certain freemasonry is not of Christian origin.Steve, Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and I will not take you to task over yours. Is the ritual based on many religious stories from all religious faiths ie : bible, torah,Quoran ?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 16:11:07 GMT
Steve , thank you for confirming my query had a genuine base.
ruff, I agree with you niether of us are as clever as we think we are. As I understand it now, that means we aint half clever ?
ruff I am of the opinion that modern Freemasonry was born out of the Trade Guilds of the middle ages and that things like the KT were added on after when it seemed convenient to do so. I have seen no evidence that shows freemasonry dates back to Egyptian time. The only link is being Builders, but then so were the Aztecs.
However there are a series of Egyptian tales that resemble the Hiram theme. [looking for link back later]
I believe the constructors of Freemasonry did what Shakespear and many others have done, they pinched bits from other places. If it worked they kept it in, if it did not they dropped it. A sort of evolutionary ritual formation over a long period.
The ritual in most of its modern character is quite new.
I see no particular mystery in the signs of the second degree. They are expained in detail and the only links within the ritual and the lectures of the second degree go back to the time of the Temple of King Solomon. The construction of which is fully supported and documented. Anything else beyond that is complete speculation.
Which of course everyone is entitled to endulge in.
But it just seems to me like your given a complete training manual for the operation of a Ford Escort, then someone says , well what is the true meaning of the radio, why is it in this position, was there an influence from Alexander the Great in its design:- and on and on.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 16:32:19 GMT
The lesson to learn Stewart is that anything worth having does not come easily or quickly. The ritual and the performance of it in time permiates the person involved. The ritual and the bonding of one man to another has of and in itself that simple and lasting benefit, - affection.
Lets give you a hidden mystery Stewart and you work it out.
Taylorsman cant stand to be in the same room as me, yet if he needed me at any time, night or day, I'm there.
If a Brother was in need of a £ 1,000 and I had it I would give it to him.
If ruff phoned me at 4 am and said Bill I 'm stranded can you help. I would get up , get dressed and go get him.
If Staffs called for a fiver I would say no.
Without a second thought. I say these things and I dont mean to sound as if it is just me. I have many that I can call on and I have.
I can list more but you get the point.
This is what Freemasonry is about, not fantasy, mystery and speculation.
There is a line in the ritual which says "as by a natural tendency it conduces those who are obedient to its precepts", which is what the essense of it all is. Read the ritual Stewart, let it wash over you without questioning every word and phrase.
I have said this many times, you dont feel the motion of the boat if your not in it rowing. You cant stand on the shore and know what it feels like to feel part of the team.
But if you need the magical mystery tour, I'm not coming to take it away.
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 15, 2006 16:37:35 GMT
I agree with you in this regard. The Egyptian, Grecian and Roman mysteries were not necessarily directly linked to the formation of modern masonry. Philosohically however, you have provided the link in the above quote. So whereas one may claim masonry has a Christian origin, that is only a half truth. The Hermetic and Neo-Platonic influences within our ritual and symbolism profoundly alter what a 'Chritian origin' really signifies. Therefore,Gnostic Christianity, for many who look at the 1st to 3rd century Christian history as something quite different from its contemporary understanding, may be a far more accurate lable to apply to Masonry.
Actually Bill, that is incorrect. There is no secondary, archeological evidence outside the story in the OT that there was ever a King Solomon. Not a singlem pottery shard has been found as evidence, nor parchment from within his supposed time and kingdom, or even from the know records from adjoining kingdoms. It is a further proof to many academics that the writings of the Bible are allegorical in context and not to be taken has a recorded history. Try to find something on the internet with regard to any physical evidence of there ever being a King Solomon or his Temple.
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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 16:40:15 GMT
Any chance of you answering my questions Bill? This is what Freemasonry is about, not fantasy, mystery and speculation. So there is no speculation in Freemasonry Bill? OK. This is the point Bill, many appear not to do this No Bill the time has not yet come when it is right and proper for me to read your rituals. Bill does the possibility not occur to you that I am already in the team? Why else do you think that so many of your brothers greet me as Brother? right up to and including acting grand ranks. What I get out of Freemasonry may be different to what you get out of it, but it makes it no less valuable. Now I will answer your mystery. But first I would like you to answer the question put to you and not divert away from it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 17:26:58 GMT
We can say the same about Exodus and many other normally accepted historical stories or if you prefer legends. Whether there was or was not a Temple of Solomon has no real point here. We are using the symbolic meaning of many of these things so if they did or did not exist it makes no real difference. Many millions believe that these things happened and were historical fact. Like the size of the fish I have no doubt they have undergone an enlargement process over the years. We have written evidence from a variety of sources. This I found on a Muslim site 1. The Hebrews of the Bible have no connection to the Jews today. 2. The Hebrews of the Bible were Arabs. 3. The Prophets of the Bible were Muslims. 4. Biblical King Solomon was a Muslim Prophet. 5. Solomon’s Temple was not built by Israelites but by Arab Canaanites. We have to give them some credibility after all wasn't Jesus a Palestinian. So we have the Jews and the Muslims and the Christians all laying claim to Solomon and his Temple. So it matters not if there was a temple, the fact that so many believe it to be so should be enough. The belief is what is important. From belief springs hope. Apendix Explorations carried out by Nelson Glueck in Edom have discovered the copper mines exploited by Solomon. Excavations conducted by Glueck at Ezion-geber on the Gulf of Aqabah proved it to be a storage and port city from which Solomon’s ships, partly manned by Phoenician crews, sailed to Ophir, probably Somaliland in eastern Africa, and brought back gold. His "ships of Tarshish" (see Tarshish, 2) brought monkeys, ivory, peacocks, etc. (1 Ki 9:26–28; 10:11, 22; Jos. Ant. viii. 7. 2). www.nisbett.com/people/bp-solomon.htm"... He (Solomon) also built cities which might be counted among the strongest, Hazor and Megiddo, and the third Gezer, which had indeed belonged to the Philistines's; but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, had made an expedition against it, and besieged it, and taken it by force: and when he had slain all it's inhabitants, he utterly overthrew it, and gave it as a present to his daughter, who married Solomon, for which reason the king rebuilt it, as a city that was naturally strong, and might be useful in wars, and the mutations of affairs that sometimes happen." - Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews "Pharaoh, king of Egypt had gone up and captured Gezer and burnt it with fire, and has slain the Canaanites's who dwelt in the city, and had given it as dowry to his daughter, Solomon's wife; So Solomon rebuilt Gezer." - I Kings 9:15 "The only Egyptian architectural remains ever found in Jerusalem may be identified with the palace of Pharaoh's Daughter, constructed by Solomon after the completion of the Temple of Yahweh in the king's 11th year...These remains date to Late Bronze IIA-B and are contemporary with the reigns of the Egyptian Pharaohs Haremheb (late-reign) and Seti I." - David M. Rohl, A Test of Time: The Bible from Myth to History (1995), p. 184 "Excavations at Megiddo built during this period,which I Kings 9:15 records as being built up by Solomon, revealed a Late Bronze Age palace 50 metres long with two-metre thick walls, a royal treasure-room with a magnificent hoard of treasures and the richest collection of Canaanite carved ivory yet discovered in Palestine (Yigael Yadin of the University of Jerusalem)." www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/solomon.html
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 17:50:19 GMT
Bill, is Freemasonry not a place where as you travel (as in do the Work, practice the Craft, not the meaning of visiting other lodges) you learn how to take steps up the ladder? OK you want specific answers , I thought I had covered everything but I am sorry if I have not communicated myself properly. That is what I have tried to impart , the Guys do make an improvement in themselves by their regular and faithfull attendance. If you train an army , the most efficient way is to get all the recruits doing the same thing on a regular basis. its the same with masonry, get the basic training done before you jump off the top of the cliff. well yes OK, but do the basic training first. All you say happens now Stewart your asking a duck to waddle. Ok lets go back to 1623 we will say and there are about 6 New Masons sitting in a roff space above a tavern in Wiltshire. " OK Guys what can we do now, so that in ooooh, I dont know some 330 years time new people will try to figure out what we were all about" ? "Well", said one "we could write it down, just have to find someone who can write " Lets move on to Oxford in 1710 " OK chaps, what are we going to make of this ritual?" pause - " It has to be very special so that it remains an unsoved mystery for hundreds of years". - these men would have been the owners of vast empires of tea production and slave owners. So how much do you think they worried about future generations ? again I thought I covered this but. In the second degree you are expected to extend your resesearches into the hidden mysteries of nature and science. Anything that is beyond your understanding is a mystery , therfore any advanment in the knowledge of the world and what makes it tick is an improvement. 99.5 % of Freemasons do not, repeat - do not take off on a journey to educate themselves in magical or mystical potential in the symbols of Freemasonry. If some wish to do so then good luck. Most do not. That does not make them inferiro in any way, likewise it does not make those mystical apprentioces superior in any way.
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 15, 2006 17:52:05 GMT
For once I agree with Bill Mc Elligott! It really does not matter if KST ever existed as we envisage it. For what it is worth I believe it did , but that is not the point, it is what is signifies. and the Esoteric significance of that Temple to many religions and to the various parts of the family of Freemasonry. Again there is the Symbolical aspect of "The Temple" in that we build it within ourselves. Jesus was accused of Blasphemy by the Jewish Elders when he said that he woud "Destroy the Temple and rebuild it within three days" They thought he was referring to Herod's Temple in Jerusalem but he actually meant himself.
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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 19:30:27 GMT
Thank you for answering my questions Bill, I will now as promised reply to yours Lets give you a hidden mystery Stewart and you work it out. Taylorsman cant stand to be in the same room as me, yet if he needed me at any time, night or day, I'm there. And if push came to shove I suspect that Steve would be there for you as well. The two of you may not see eye to eye but you both have good hearts. Bill your dry humour always gets me tickled. Excellent but you can get all of this without being in a Masonic fraternity you know. It is called being a caring and helpful human. This and only this? Is this the main bit of Freemasonry? - to help others and be helped in a way that is achieved every single day by many people who have no involvement with Freemasonry. Bill do you accept that you may not know it all? I certainly don't know it all. But I do know that the further I have traveled things that I once thought were fantasy have revealed themself - the hidden mystery bit. Freemasonry is loaded with the Mysteries, Bill. All hidden in plain sight. Are you in all seriousness saying that speculation has nothing to do with Freemasonry? As noted in a previous post this is the problem, this does not appear to be happening as often as it perhaps should. As noted previously it is not right and proper for me to read the ritual at this time. And if you don't question you won't understand. You will just memorise. Again see previous post. Very kind. I on the other hand am giving you something. Help to access what you appear to have missed from your career in Freemasonry.
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Post by ptbojim on Sept 15, 2006 20:23:29 GMT
On this point there is the potential for confusion and misinterpretation. If, for example, one loses sight of the symbolic (esoteric) meaning, the true essence or context is lost. I agree that it matters not if there was a physical temple, however I would put forth the argument that the philosophical truth represented by the symbol of the temple is most important. Truth is what I seek, not false hope based on a lack of reason or fact. Even if both paths lead to the same conclusion that there was, is and shall always be an uncaused cause or source of matter and life. Do you honestly believe the Christian Resource Center of Bermuda is a credible scientific source? How about an independent, nonreligious biased, academically accredited university publication to support the above claim. You realize that Josephus did not live at this period in time. He is simply repeating a story as if it were fact or history. Once again, where is the physical evidence? If you were to call up the British Museum in London or the Louver in Paris and asked what artifacts they had on display from the kingdom of Solomon what do you think the reply would be? Once again, I ask where is the non Biblical proof of such a claim. Perhaps some hieroglyphic substantiation. David Rohl and the New Chronology; Will It Stand the Test of Time? Rohl's New Chronology (NC), as far as it had then been developed, was published in 1995 in his splendid and well-publicised book 'A Test of Time'[25]. A supporting TV documentary brought examples of the flawed Egyptian chronology to the attention of millions of viewers around the world. His book and TV series have done the revisionist cause an immense service in achieving a wide public awareness of the lack of credibility of the conventional chronology. However, the NC has failed to find majority support among revisionists, and has been almost ignored by the Establishment. Much discussed in SIS publications, its main weaknesses appear to be (i) the lack of convincing evidence for an equivalent to Shishak's campaign against the fenced cities of Judah and Jerusalem; (ii) the placement of the wars of Seti I in Palestine and Syria in the middle of Solomon's age of peace and prosperity; (iii) identifying the Habiru with the conquering Hebrews, which finds little archaeological support; and (iv) no convincing resolution to the dates for the kings of D20 - D22. Rohl has, however, as the latest JACF shows, retained the support of some leading revisionists, who are working with him to develop the NC in more detail. www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/ancient.htmAs this appears to be the source for all the above quotes I would once again ask if it would endure academic scrutiny. Also, with regard to the claim from Yigael Yadin, where is there any reference made to Solomon from this great find. A carving, a statue, a parchment....anything to substantiate that the palace has anything at all to do with a King Solomon. "Dr. FINKELSTEIN: The Bible says not only that Solomon was a great king; the Bible also says that Solomon built at Megiddo. So people in the past took this gate not only as a manifestation of Solomon's greatness but also as an example of what he did at Megiddo. However, it doesn't date to the time of Solomon. SEVERSON: You are saying this is really not Solomon's gate? Dr. FINKELSTEIN: No, this is definitely not Solomon's gate. From PBS: www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week723/cover.htmlUnfortunately so much religion and politics envelope this area of interest that ultimately the volume of biased, agenda driven propaganda muddies the water. I personally would love to see an authenticated artifact that would lay this debate to rest once and for all, however the silence from science and absolute lack of physical proof is all we can base a reasoned judgment upon.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 20:47:40 GMT
If you ask me out on a date I shall scream.
Never said I knew everything. But wait a minute
Sounds like you think you know even more than this knowitall. Come on Stewart, you know exactly what your doing.
Your saying to a man who has been Freemason since 19and frozen to death, that runs 4 Masonic forums, been debating of forums like this since Staffs was in knee pants. Your telling him he has not got a clue what its all about.
I honestly dont mean to offend but Mate dont you even see what that sounds like.
You then ask him to admit he does not know what hes talking about.
If you cant see the beauty in a bond of friendship and belonging as something worth fighting for and defending I cant do any more than I have to bring that to your attention.
If debating for endless hours on why the SW's column is the shape it is brings you happiness then great go for it.
But if you and your lecturing to Freemasons leaves any part of the true love and beauty of Freemasonry behind, be assured I will be there banging a drum to make sure no one forgets.
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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 20:53:29 GMT
Bill, bear with me, but I need a little more clarification That is what I have tried to impart , the Guys do make an improvement in themselves by their regular and faithfull attendance. If you train an army , the most efficient way is to get all the recruits doing the same thing on a regular basis. its the same with masonry, get the basic training done before you jump off the top of the cliff. So is attendance all that matters? At what stage does the basic training (of attendance?) stop and The Work begin? Do you really see Practicing the Craft as jumping of a Cliff? Excellent. You are expected to do so. So how do you help your Lodge members do this? Hold on Bill, we are talking about the hidden mysteries of nature and science here, which you yourself have confirmed that UGLE Freemasons are expected to research. This is not initself symbolism. This is the very fabric of your daily existence. If 99.5% of UGLE Freemasons as you say, choose not to do what is expected of them, is that not a breach of the trust given to them; corrupting the masonic experience for those who follow (if you cant feel it how can you teach and guide?); and making a mockery out of Freemasonry? You would expect your doctor to train as he has promised. A lawyer to do the same. Even a car mechanic. How come it is that 99.5% of Freemasons, by your own admission, don't do what they are expected to do? (I assume from your post you treat the hidden mysteries and the symbols as being one and the same, if this is not correct please correct me). Just some thoughts.
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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 20:55:27 GMT
But if you and your lecturing to Freemasons leaves any part of the true love and beauty of Freemasonry behind, be assured I will be there banging a drum to make sure no one forgets. Is that a threat?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 21:00:42 GMT
Hey , you asked me to search the internet, you did not say to limit the search.
OK, if it makes you happy, your much more clever than I am.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2006 21:28:50 GMT
Here you go I tried harder any good. ? In 1868 an inscribed basalt stone, dating from the 9th Century BC - known as the Moabite Stone or the Mesha Stela - was discovered at Dibon, Jordan; an ancient city east of the Dead Sea, by FA Klein, a German missionary. The stone was 1.1m high and 0.6m in breadth and in thickness, rounded at the top. It consisted of thirty-four lines, written in the ancient Hebrew alphabet, a script closely related to Phoenician; and was set up by Mesha3 at Dan as a record and memorial of his victories. The stone was, unfortunately, much fragmented but in 1993 a French scholar, Andre Lemaire, who had spent seven years piecing it all together, discovered the words 'House of David'. Line 31 of the Moabite Stone contains the words '...the sheep of the land. And the house (of Da)vid dwelt in Horonen'. This was reported in Biblical Archaeology Review, May-June, 1994. and created such a sensation that it was also reported on the front page of The New York Times. This inscription showed that Israel and Judah were important kingdoms in the 9th Century BC, and refuted the positions of those scholars who claimed that these were never nations of any significance, and even disputed that David had ever been at the head of a united monarchy. [ Moabite Stone www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a019.html ] www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A9914268House of David Inscription As part of this exhibition, the House of David Inscription will leave Israel for the first time ever. The inscription is the first - and so far only - mention of the Davidic Dynasty, and possibly of King David, outside of the Bible. Before its discovery in 1993, scholars debated fiercely about the historical validity of King David, who is revered as the greatest of all Israelite kings, and his dynasty. But archaeologists found the three pieces of the House of David Inscription, also referred to as the Tel Dan Inscription, in 1993 and 1994 in Tel Dan, Israel, and forever altered the nature of that debate. "The House of David Inscription is the single most important artifact in the State of Israel and is a national treasure," Boytner said. "Before the inscription was found, there was the question, 'Were David and Solomon mythical figures or real people?' This may very well mean the Davidic Dynasty was not a biblical myth, but an historical fact." Hazael, king of Aram, is believed to have created the Aramaic inscription as part of a victory stele in about 825 BCE (Before Common Era, the non-Christian designation of time before 0). The inscription will be on loan from its permanent home, the Israel Museum in Jerusalem (www.imj.org.il). A report in Biblical Archaeology Review, March-April 1994, states: Avraham Biran and his team of archaeologists found a remarkable inscription from the 9th Century BC that refers to the 'House of David' and to the 'King of Israel'. This is the first time that the name David has been found in any inscription outside the Bible. That the inscription refers not simply to David but to the 'House of David', the dynasty of the great Israelite king, is even more remarkable.
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