|
Post by 2 BOWL CAIN on Aug 11, 2007 9:20:29 GMT
But why should tests of fitness for initiation be called riding the goat? This revolves about the significance of the five-pointed star which from antiquity has been employed as the symbol of man. The star placed with one point up has the significance of intelligence ruling the four elementary kingdoms, reason dominating the instincts of the flesh. It is thus the Grecian Hygeia, used by the Pythagoreans as the symbol of health. Now, in the zodiac the head of man, organ of intelligence, is ruled by Aries, pictured among the constellations as the Ram. In sacred works, consequently, to designate that the creative forces are directed by intelligence, it is common to refer to this circumstance as the lamb, and is so mentioned by St. John. The five-pointed star when inverted, however, signifies man standing on his head; reason dominated by lust, passion, and selfishness; and is thus emblematical of chaos, the pit, black magic, and the devil. Zodiacally the home sign of Saturn, the origin of our Satan, is Capricorn, pictured in the firmament by a goat. The goat, whose beard forms the downward point, whose ears form the two lateral points and whose horns form the two upward points of a five-pointed star, therefore, as well as the inverted five-pointed star, is a symbol of black magic and evil. St. John refers to this inverted star as a falling star named wormwood. It will also now be apparent why the separation of the good and the evil should be referred to in the Scripture as dividing the sheep from the goats. The goat is the symbol of evil, and riding the goat signifies that temptations have been vanquished, the devil overcome, and the animal instincts sublimated into spiritual assets. In the course of initiation, past or present, the candidate comes into the possession of new knowledge and new powers that alike are capable of either use or abuse, the proper application of which requires a high moral standard. To become master of the occult sciences, which ancient religious law forbade to be placed in writing, requires a strong intellect. The practice of white magic demands fortitude, persistence, self-confidence, and courage. Therefore, to prove the candidate’s mental, moral, and physical fitness to receive the Hermetic Secret Doctrine, the strength of these qualities were, and are, subjected to test.
|
|
|
Post by thedixiemason on Aug 14, 2007 20:38:12 GMT
Tubalcain, I agree with your analysis. Have you also considered Baphomet, or the Goat of Mendes? Also, one of the root words of "Elohim" is "ah-yil" which means "ram."
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Aug 14, 2007 20:39:55 GMT
Oh no not THIS again!
This is a phrase related to the Scots Working of the Third Degree and there is no "Goat" involved.
|
|
|
Post by sid on Aug 14, 2007 20:44:29 GMT
Tubalcain, I agree with your analysis. Have you also considered Baphomet, or the Goat of Mendes? Also, one of the root words of "Elohim" is "ah-yil" which means "ram." ... as I have mentioned before, there was a group of Knight Templar in Holland who were known by the locals as the "Goat riders".
|
|
|
Post by thedixiemason on Aug 14, 2007 21:01:38 GMT
Sorry to re-hash a subject that you've already covered. I'm new to this forum. I just always thought it was interesting that the word Elohim has its root in the word for Ram.
|
|
|
Post by thedixiemason on Aug 14, 2007 21:10:18 GMT
Sid, when were these Templars in Holland known as Goat riders? Why were they called that?
|
|
|
Post by keith on Aug 14, 2007 22:15:03 GMT
Goats? Oh no, not again!
THis has been done to death time and time again! PLEASE, give it a rerst.
|
|
|
Post by thedixiemason on Aug 14, 2007 22:41:49 GMT
Keith, from what I've seen all of these subjects have been discussed time and time again. If you don't want to discuss goats, then don't.... I'm not sure why you're so bothered by it.
|
|
|
Post by maat on Aug 14, 2007 23:57:13 GMT
Quick note in passing, will get back to this thread later when more time.
The clue may lie in the words "The goat, whose beard forms the downward point..."
Just think of the goat as a representation of spirit IN-voluting. It is our job to E-volute that same spirit/energy and if/when we attain this goal we can be said to 'ride the goat' back to where it came from, but this time we are in control of it. We are the master.
There are astrological and more mysterious meanings for the term, but this is the simplest to explain.
Maat
|
|
|
Post by maat on Aug 15, 2007 0:10:20 GMT
A request from me to our longstanding and loyal members ... I know sometimes the threads must seem like the "same old, same old..." but this is inevitable and 'very necessary' if we are stay viable as a forum and attract and retain new members, and new masons in particular. So an appeal for help from you 'oldies' - can you give us mods a hand in finding similar threads from the past and directing our new members to them, or better still, comb the older thread and extract the most relevent posts. I love it when someone brings back the oldies, but the goodies. I have tried innumerable times to trace old pieces which I found valuable and have been unable to do so on many occasions... lost in the volumes that have gone before. You know how our threads ramble. Have ridden horses and camels - still trying to corral the old goat myself... Maat
|
|
|
Post by thedixiemason on Aug 15, 2007 0:21:14 GMT
From what I gather, there are as many opinions about the term as there are people who discuss it. I still like the fact that one of the names of God, "Elohim," has a root in the word that means "Ram."
|
|
|
Post by penfold on Aug 15, 2007 6:53:11 GMT
And the Ancient Egyptian word for onion and light share the same root....
I must be honest I kind of agree with Lauderdale and Keith - the goat myths do us no favours at all, and I get really queasy when I see 'goat' and 'baphomet' in the same sentence/para.....its one of those things that is usually dragged up by the more ranting anti masons
|
|
|
Post by thedixiemason on Aug 15, 2007 6:59:19 GMT
Well, I'm not an Anti-Mason...I'm a regular Mason... And the only thing that would make you queasy about a goat is your pre-conceived prejudice.
Baphomet, or the Goat of Mendes, is a grotesque depiction of God.
However, it inculcates several of "his/her" names...
|
|
|
Post by thedixiemason on Aug 15, 2007 7:04:00 GMT
It's very funny that so many jump to follow the GD, or Eliphas Levi's Tarot, but refuse to even speak about his depiction of Baphomet!
What ignorance!
|
|
|
Post by penfold on Aug 15, 2007 7:51:44 GMT
Well, I'm not an Anti-Mason...I'm a regular Mason... And the only thing that would make you queasy about a goat is your pre-conceived prejudice. Baphomet, or the Goat of Mendes, is a grotesque depiction of God. However, it inculcates several of "his/her" names... Dixie, you are entitled to your opinions, but they are just that, your opinions, no matter how many others share them, they are still just opinions. Can I ask what leads you to your pre-conceived mis-conceptions regarding the goat and Baphomet? (see - we can both be rude!)
|
|
jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
|
Post by jmd on Aug 15, 2007 8:35:30 GMT
tubulcain420, is this also a quote (as you have recently also given in other threads) from C.C. Zain? It just sounds like it, but have not searched his writings to confirm.
It is interesting, if that is the case, that he very likely does take, or is at least influenced heavily by, Eliphas Levi, as indicated by thedixiemason (Levi does not, by the way, have a tarot set designed, only three card-images, if I recall correctly - viz, the Chariot and the Wheel and, if taken as card XV, his rendition of Baphomet).
What I actually like with the quote is that it effectively says: alright, we've been accused of riding the goat - let's take that as somehow and non-masonically symbolically correct, even if there is nothing we do that we consider as either literally nor symbolically doing so, and see if we can make better sense of this by playful reflections (and playful reflections can often lead to new insights, we just need to be careful to not then get carried away and believe our steps to the insights to be reflections of Truth).
So here tubulcain420 (or Zain if a quote from his works) reminds us both of Eliphas Levi's works and some astrological considerations. What's also quite interesting, of course, is that those two St Johns time have a long association with Freemasonry, and that one of these is clearly associated with Capricorn, and hence the goat.
He further makes of the inverted pentagramme a reminder that at least others before him have related this to the goat, and that the pentagramme itself has a long and established association with Health via the Pythagorean tradition (there usually called the "pentalpha" or "Five-A" in Greek).
So here, 'riding the goat' is symbolically interpreted in the manner that 'riding' other animal has also similarly been interpreted (in Christian tradition, by the way, the Lion sitting at one's feet can be so interpreted): sublimation of our animal passions.
Whether or not one agrees with the still recurring image of the goat in association with Freemasonry (and I do not), reflecting on the image in the light presented does bring to consciousness symbolic imagery that some amongst us may indeed wish to adapt and adopt. In that case, of course, the symbolic content is quite different to the implications intended by hinting at more sexual mis-conducts between man and animal by our detractors.
|
|
|
Post by penfold on Aug 15, 2007 9:34:10 GMT
Food for thought there, jmd
|
|
|
Post by 2 BOWL CAIN on Aug 15, 2007 10:19:39 GMT
alot of OT symbols and allegory revolve around lambs,goats and rams.....which I believe relates to the Age of Aries, then in the AGE of Pieces, fishing and fisherman symbology reigned in judeo-christrian religious structures.
|
|
|
Post by penfold on Aug 15, 2007 10:37:46 GMT
I think that the symbolism reflects what was common in the society at the time, hence lots of roaming grass munchers.....
|
|
|
Post by mike on Aug 15, 2007 11:35:47 GMT
|
|