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Post by brandt on Sept 3, 2007 14:31:50 GMT
Reason and faith are not meant to be in opposition. This is what is meant by the Book of Nature. Through the study of science and other subjects one should be able to develop a better understanding of the Divine. What does this mean for Masonry. I think that the answer is clear. By understanding science and the moral implications/ramifications of science we develop a working philosophy that can achieve our stated goal(s) which are the "brotherhood of all humanity under the All Seeing Eye of Deity." When we can adhere to the "landmarks" and work together our goal can be achieved. The problem arises if we actually work contrary to what we are attempting to accomplish.
Brandt
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 3, 2007 15:09:12 GMT
Very clearly stated Bro. Brandt. Much better than what I posted.
Jeff
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Post by brandt on Sept 3, 2007 22:25:14 GMT
I don't know about that Brother, I am far less well read and thought as you are.
Brandt
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Post by maat on Sept 4, 2007 0:16:06 GMT
Four days away and what happens? This wonderful thread! (It did bring a smile to my face to see that Mr Peace wants to joust with the powers that be ;D) So much marvellous advice given already - and a real spirit of give and take - THIS is Masonry in action. Antoninus9 you probably were not a member of the forum when somebody posted something I have never forgotten. It went along the lines of a Masonic Lodge can never be more perfect than 'the stones' used in its contruction - and as they rarely are perfect so will you always find an imperfect lodge. Have you considered that maybe it is this very imperfection that is our most valuable tool. What makes a stone smoother than another stone rubbing against it?! The harder the stone (a diamond which reflects the Light) the better the result. Next time someone rubs you the wrong way, check your REaction I did notice in your opening post these particular words ... "The present method of conducting witch-hunts will ultimately fail because they don’t know who is involved with all the little groups or how many of them are working together to undermine the present system." Which put me in mind of another wonderful group of Light Workers - Lions International, whose code of ethics contains the words "in building up your business, it is not necessary to tear down anothers." Wise words. Which is more useful? A candle in the darkness or a bushfire? Maat
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Post by wayseer on Sept 4, 2007 0:27:15 GMT
Bushfire - get's rid of the rubbish.
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 4, 2007 0:48:31 GMT
Maat,
When I said: "The present method of conducting witch-hunts will ultimately fail because they don’t know who is involved with all the little groups or how many of them are working together to undermine the present system." It was to state what is taking place. The purpose of the post, however, was to search for solutions that could avoid this and allow everyone to work together in harmony.
Isn't it about time to stop all the fighting and start building the future together as brothers/sisters?
Jeff
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Post by devoutfreemason on Sept 4, 2007 1:41:57 GMT
Maat, When I said: "The present method of conducting witch-hunts will ultimately fail because they don’t know who is involved with all the little groups or how many of them are working together to undermine the present system." It was to state what is taking place. The purpose of the post, however, was to search for solutions that could avoid this and allow everyone to work together in harmony. Isn't it about time to stop all the fighting and start building the future together as brothers/sisters? Jeff Yes, it is. At the same time Brother you have the lead a horse to water situation, and that is what it is I'm afraid. Those who value the intitution over the idea will never embrace the progressive.
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Post by hollandr on Sept 4, 2007 3:22:18 GMT
Dixie
I think we can see your concerns pretty clearly now
Having stated them, are we ready to consider Jeff's original question: "how to get these two groups to talk openly and honestly about the situation"?
I know that similar currents exist in Australia so the issue is not confined to a single jurisdiction.
I am reminded somewhat of the split between the ancients and moderns long ago that took the best part of a century to heal and even now may not be completely gone as demonstrated by a recent failed move by my GL to remove recognition of Holy Royal Arch.
It seems to me that the core of the current problem parallels the tension between traditional and charismatic christian churches. One group wants to retain traditional forms and the other to have intense experiences.
In Masonry this might be resolved by the younger brethren out-living the older generations. But I might be a bit hopeful there in that not all younger brethren are interested in intense initiatory experiences
An alternative is for GL to allow lodges more freedom to search out rituals that best suit their members rather than insisting on a standardised ritual. Scottish lodges may be better situated in this regard.
A freedom to experiment with existing rituals may allow brethren more choice and their migration to preferred lodges might allow an easy transition into whatever Masonry needs to become to meet its mission
But it may be that the brethren wishing intense experience need to form new bottles for new wine
Cheers
Russell
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 4, 2007 3:38:30 GMT
Russell, There are 2 separate issues you mentioned in your post. 1. The original question of the thread, "ow can we work together?" 2. GL's allowing members to practice other rituals.
I do not see these being one issue, but 2.
1. I think we are working together within our own systems. We just have our borders, and don't work with each other...That is, however, happening now with the "Regular" GL's and the PHA GL's. Who knows, maybe one day it will spread to other GL's.... But this we can't really change any faster that it is going right now...
2. My biggest "gripe" with our system is the restraint of so many degrees which are forbidden to be practiced.... That is something I hope to change within the Grand College of Rites. I am a dues paying member, and they have jurisdiction over all of those other degrees. I will try to fix that from within.
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Post by maat on Sept 4, 2007 4:00:30 GMT
I will try to fix that from within. Good for you Dixie. It is the only place you can 'fix' something when you think about it. May wisdom and fortitude be with you.... wasn't game to say 'the force' ;D Maat
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Post by hollandr on Sept 4, 2007 4:01:47 GMT
>so many degrees which are forbidden to be practiced....
I did not think of those degrees not usually worked although I have read Knight's (?) attempt to piece together the information in those rituals into a coherent text.
Personally I have no objection to working the intermediate degrees although I suspect that they have fallen into disuse primarily because brethren did not see sufficient value in their use or perhaps some degrees were introduced to push particular agendas (rather than promote the development of the brethren) and those agendas are no longer active.
But that leaves untouched my primary concern that Masonry has yet to address its divine mission that goes beyond improvement of its members and charitable works.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Sept 4, 2007 4:01:49 GMT
Bushfire - get's rid of the rubbish. Oh Wayseer - you are naughty! But I like you Maat
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 4, 2007 4:13:24 GMT
>so many degrees which are forbidden to be practiced.... I did not think of those degrees not usually worked although I have read Knight's (?) attempt to piece together the information in those rituals into a coherent text. Personally I have no objection to working the intermediate degrees although I suspect that they have fallen into disuse primarily because brethren did not see sufficient value in their use or perhaps some degrees were introduced to push particular agendas (rather than promote the development of the brethren) and those agendas are no longer active. But that leaves untouched my primary concern that Masonry has yet to address its divine mission that goes beyond improvement of its members and charitable works. Cheers Russell Russell, Have you ever heard of the "Knight of the Moon, and Truth?" I will show you something that will blow your mind... A 300 year old Masonic prophecy. The Greatest Light to the Lesser Light.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 4, 2007 4:16:26 GMT
Russell, Go find that degree, and I will show you something that happened in 1971 that "Marked" the 7th dispensation. www.spacerelics.com/959/ma1.htmlCheck this out first.
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Post by hollandr on Sept 4, 2007 5:55:30 GMT
>Have you ever heard of the "Knight of the Moon, and Truth?"
Not until now
>The Greatest Light to the Lesser Light.
The moon is very strange as can be seen from its geometrical relationships with the Earth and Sun
Cheers
Russell
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 4, 2007 6:08:42 GMT
Blah, blah, blah..... Go find that ritual, and I will show you a Masonic prophecy written 300 years ago, then I will show you the rest... Russell, You are the only person I know to use the word "dispensation." I know that you know what it means... You are 1 in a million that can get it.
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Post by hollandr on Sept 4, 2007 10:22:21 GMT
Well I have found that the Rite of Mizraim has a degree The Knights of the Moon and of Truth.
The only source I have located at present is the Grand College of Rites' 1958 edition of Collecteana
So I am a bit stuck
Any hints on an easier source?
Russell
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 4, 2007 11:07:14 GMT
I'm not sure how to enter this thread - there appears to be various aspects that hint at more local frictions, and other points that appear to be not only universal in the geographical sense, but also in its chronological one.
I suppose that over the past few years, I have increasingly come to the view that in part because Freemasonry is diverse, either a GL in a locality has to be able to encompass far greater variety than is usually the case, or, better, there has to be tolerance and due recognition of a variety of Freemasonic works and GLs. Again, it seems to me that the French model appears to be (of the ones I have seen in action), by far the most preferable: a variety of GLs that each recognise one the other, allow inter-visitations of both men and women Masons, and can even co-exist happily within not only single cities, but work within the same Lodge rooms!
Can, however, something of the sort be solely achieved 'from within'? It in part depends what is meant by 'within'. If meaning 'within Freemasonry', then it is obvious that this can indeed only take place from within - but it does not mean that the 'within' is within the confines of a single GL. In fact, it may be preferable, in some situations, to create what may be regarded by some as a 'splinter group'. I have so far preferred to not do that, but rather work within the constructs of my own GL, in due time putting proposals for some fundamental alterations. But what happens if these are rejected (as they very well be!)?
This is where steps such as those taken by a number of Freemasons I know become likely the most desirable - ie, remove oneself in some manner from working in Lodges within a GL and either seek to continue to rectify that which is not right, or work with fellow brethren independently of that GL. In areas of high population density (or if in Europe or Asia where population density is quite different to our local landscape), the latter is not a problem.
I personally like what the RRCG has undertaken and done, and it is a great shame that their local GL has seen fit to declare them 'clandestine' - such actions can only continue to undermine legitimate Freemasonic engagements. I know that locally (by which I mean in the State in which I live), there are various Freemasonic 'study groups' that have formed without seeking approval from the local GL: basically, it is often deemed easier and better to work than to go through not only the red-tape, but under the monitored scrutiny of an appointed GL officer who may have rather little interest and knowledge as to what is being done, and fearful of potential or possible 'heresies'.
Where I disagree with antoninus9's opening post is in the statement that "an organisation divided against itself cannot stand". As mentioned by middlepillar, with whom I agree on this, Freemasonry has various growths, much of which arising from divisions and the warmth of friction and differences of orientations of its members. This is not, perhaps, quite the same as "an organisation divided against itself" - but a multiplicity of Freemasonic organisations, of which the unit of the organisation are independent Lodges... and here, of course, is the crux: the basis of Freemasonry lies, organisationally, in Lodges, not in GLs.
Lying in Lodges, the freedom to associate and link with other Lodges should also be fundamentally reflected by its own preferences as to whether or not it wishes to align itself with one or another (of the hundreds around the world) GL... or none at all! And still be, essentially and fundamentally, regarded as a true and duly recognised Freemasonic Lodge, and its members, irrespective of religious belief, gender or genetic ancestry, as genuine - or to use the Masonic equivalent: regular Freemasons.
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Post by 2 BOWL CAIN on Sept 4, 2007 12:30:37 GMT
Brother jmd, Incredible post! What insight and level headedness in discussing this issue of Lodges working together. It is the Lodges that make the masons and should determine its direction. Freemasonry is supposed to advanced study, and why not advanced study in Freemasonry. A cookie cutter mold to Lodges will not work, and trying to FORCE round pegs into square holes will not work, either. When Freemasonry was really eductaing men and drawing the greatest minds into it, it was a freer establishment, and intervisitation was more likely. Brother Ben Franklin, who sat with "irregular" French masons, did so to ensure a free america. Why masons of all rites & orders can't meet on the level is baffling to me. Again, bro jmd, a great post and thank you for sharing it with us!
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Post by leonardo on Sept 4, 2007 13:35:49 GMT
I agree, a wonderful post by JMD. I would urge everyone to read it.
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