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Post by lauderdale on Oct 11, 2007 8:45:22 GMT
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Post by devoutfreemason on Oct 11, 2007 13:17:42 GMT
That lodge is awesome. I would love to visit when I am in France. True Masonic history, holy ground as if it where.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Oct 12, 2007 0:21:22 GMT
Ben Franklin and John Paul Jones did sit in mixed (C0 Masonic) lodges while in France. What that make them irregular?
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Post by Ziggy on Oct 12, 2007 2:47:10 GMT
Ben Franklin and John Paul Jones did sit in mixed (C0 Masonic) lodges while in France. What that make them irregular? I'm sorry, you hold the Wiki Les Neuf Sœursventry as being proof that Benjamin Franklin sat in lodge with women. However, the reality is that nowhere in the article does it state that Franklin or Jones sat in a lodge with women. Though, one might interpret that the Les Neuf Sœurs lodge was probably the upstairs or backroom of a brothel, and that the Anne Catherine was most likely a madam, which I'm sure was not uncommon for the time. It's one of those things like the Green Dragon Masonic lodge was the backroom of a bar. As well as it's well known that Benjamin Franklin really did love to frequent brothels, especially those of France, as well as gamble and drink. As well is its well-known Washington and Jefferson both had Bi-racial sons, one of Alexander Hamilton's mistresses was blackmailing him for money, and Thomas Jefferson slandered John Adams to gain the presidential election. Such things were not uncommon at the time. It seems that some people in this forum make Franklin to be some sort of nancy boy, when the man was a absolute stud at heart. Too many people are still stuck in Candyland, with their ideas about the Founding Fathers of the United States, and why they started the revolution. Our Founding Fathers rebelled because it was Economically Beneficial to them, and when we did so, we embarked upon reshaping the world in our image, as we still continue to do so today.
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Post by mike on Oct 12, 2007 6:53:47 GMT
Ben Franklin and John Paul Jones did sit in mixed (C0 Masonic) lodges while in France. What that make them irregular? Do you ever read the dates of things that you read??? The first woman regularly Initiated into a Lodge was Maria Deraismes, who was Initiated into Freemasonry in "Loge Libre Penseurs" under the jurisdiction of the "Grande Loge Symbolique de France", in 1882. Once again some time after Ben Franklin was dead! What exactly is it that you're trying to prove?? M
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 12, 2007 9:05:53 GMT
Bro Mirth. What point are you trying to make? If you query the accuracy and provenance of the Wikipedia entry on Les Neuf Soeurs Lodge then try this one www.answers.com/Les%20Neuf%20S%C5%93urs%20 which give the same information inter alia that Benjamin Franklin was for a time a member of that Lodge. As to his sexual morals, so what? This was before the prudery of the Victorian era and that was how life was lived in those days. I could say that the Duke of Sussex, first Grand Master of UGLE at its foundation in 1813 was a whoremaster, in common with his brothers especially George IV formerly Prince Regent , but that would not in any way lessen the standing of UGLE as one of the largest and best known Masonic Bodies in the World. I am also sure that many Lodges back in those days were held , not in church-like marbled and oak panelled Temples , but in rooms above bars and gin-houses and even perhaps adjacent to a brothel, and in those day Meetings did not have the formality of today but food and drink were consumed and pipes smoked during the proceedings and there are records of Brethren being fined for drunkenness and other misdemeanours. We should not judge the Brethren of yesteryear by our modern mores. I agree that the Founding Fathers of the USA were not all Plaster Saints, they were men of their age and that they were motivated as much by self-interest as any altruistic reason but even as a Brit I can admire them for what they achieved in the face of probable execution for treason had they failed. Did Neuf Soeurs Lodge Initiate women at the time when Franklin was a member? I don't think so, but its Ethos was towards Equality for Women as espoused by one of its leading members The Marquis of Condorcet. Perhaps it paved the way for later developments such as the Initiation of Maria Deraismes in year to come.
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Post by mike on Oct 12, 2007 9:49:57 GMT
If you query the accuracy and provenance of the Wikipedia entry on Les Neuf Soeurs Lodge then try this one www.answers.com/Les%20Neuf%20S%C5%93urs%20 which give the same information inter alia that Benjamin Franklin was for a time a member of that Lodge. Steve, Sorry to be the one to point this out but the answers.com article is a direct "lift" from the Wikipedia article, as it says at the top in the credit line, so it has exactly the same provenance. To be honest I am a little concerned about how well it has been researched as in the first couple of lines it states that Voltaire was an "honoury" member when (as I stated in the "Voltaire" topic) he was indeed Initiated into the Lodge in 1778. However, that having been said, there is actually no doubt whatsoever that Franklin was a member of Lodge Les Neuf Soeurs as he served as its Master in 1779 Here are some more reputable/reliable (than wiki anyway) sources for details on his Masonic career: www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/benjamin_franklin_fdc.htmfreemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/franklin_b/franklin_b.htmlwww.masonicworld.com/education/files/artoct02/benjamin_franklin.htmThe point being discussed is whether he (BF) fraternised with an un-recognised Grand Lodge (a resounding no) and whether he sat in Lodge with women Freemasons also pretty unlikely for the reason I gave a couple of posts ago. M
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Harmony
Member
The Craft ; 1241 & 1386 & 1706 (Hon) (SC). OSM - Polnoon Castle Conclave. HRA - Rockmount & Camphi
Posts: 337
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Post by Harmony on Oct 12, 2007 14:23:06 GMT
There is something rather desperate in this thread.
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