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Post by lauderdale on Sept 24, 2007 23:24:18 GMT
Bro Brandt,
Control.
One possible explanation is that the Malecraft Mainstream Masonry received a great boost in numbers after WW2 when men who had been in the Armed Forces joined UGLE etc Lodges in great numbers, no doubt wishing to maintain the atmosphere they had experienced in The Services.
That being the case they were used to Ranks, Orders, King's Regulations etc and found a replication of these in the Structure and System laid down by their Grand Lodge and in its Book of Constitutions. They were happy with that. The Grand Master - The Field Marshal- made the decisions along the Generals - Board of General Purposes, and the Colonels -The PGMs ensured these were followed. Rewards were like Campaign Medals- Charity Breast Jewels and Service Awards - the Honours System and of course penalties were also on hand for those who kicked against the traces up to and including Expulsion.
My generation, the Baby Boomers or Neo Elizabethans if you prefer went against this Regimental mind-set and the generation below mine, that is those born 1970 onwards are even less amenable to such dirigist micromanagement, wish to be consulted and have a say, after all they are paying a pretty penny to be Members, and ask that awkward question WHY? far more than their grandfathers who are now dropping off the twig day and daily.
I got fed up with this and that was one of the subsidiary reasons why I quit Mainstream UGLE Masonry last year and became a Co-Mason.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 24, 2007 23:28:23 GMT
I have no problem with informed and reasoned Obedience. I object to the mind-set of "XY the ABC" said it, it must be accepted and obeyed without question. Yeah, says who?
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Post by wayseer on Sept 25, 2007 0:52:48 GMT
I have been asked to explain my earlier comments.
That the Grand Lodge shall have sovereign jurisdiction over the Lodges under its control; i.e. that it shall be a responsible, independent, self-governing organization, with sole and undisputed authority over the Craft or Symbolic Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason) within its Jurisdiction; and shall not in any way be subject to, or divide such authority with, a Supreme Council or other Power claiming any control or supervision over those degrees.
Following this quote, and I make the assumption the above is an accurate quote from some reliable Masonic authority, a comment was proffered -
By extending the Jurisdiction, one extends the power and the hold.
Actually I fail to see where jurisdiction is 'extended'. The initial quote says nothing about 'extended' any power and authority other then over the Craft or Symbolic Degrees of the jurisdiction to which the statement applies. I would imagine the local football club has something of a similar rule over members of its own organisation. That does not stop other football clubs operating in the same area.
However, from this statement of intention I read -
Granting RECOGNITION, or refusing to grant recognition AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - THREATENING TO WITHDRAW RECOGNITION does the same thing. Threats turn tools into weapons. Despotic rulers know this well.
This statement, at best, is a vague generalisation built on an assumption - and, as is the case with most assumptions, inaccurate.
From there we are told that 'threats turn into weapons' (and note well the use of the word 'weapons') with the inference that such threats, read 'weapons', are evidence of despotic rulers.
The overall concept to be derived from these statements is that GL is a despotic regime which is linked ,through association of words and concepts, to other infamous regimes that exist on this lonely planet. While I have disagreements with aspects of GL, which I have illustrated by example, to suggest GL is guided by 'despotic rulers' is not only inaccurate, it is not in line with with Masonic teachings. Quite simply, we are not 'ruled' by 'despotic rulers' - stumbling and bumbling they may be, but that is a far call from what is alleged here.
To label such Brethren as 'despotic rulers' is not what I would have hoped I would see appear on this forum.
Further - this theme has been picked up by other posters who suggest that GL, this despotic band, is interested in controlling their personal lives. I really don't know whether to laugh or cry - laugh at the absurdity of the implication or cry at the opened and disturbing possibility that those who mouth 'freedom' are in fact more chained by their own ignorance than they care to admit and thereby demonstrate that they are anything but 'free'.
My father, now approaching 70 years in the Craft, acknowledges that FM is all about the 'cultivation and perfection of the mind' - which echoes my own thoughts - that FM teaches you 'how', not 'what', to think. Those who see 'blind obedience' may have something in their eye.
I have a number of issues with GL but that does not prevent me from obeying all signs and summonses - that Brethren, is true freedom - to elect to suspend my own desires and wants for a broader and worthier goal than my own narrow objective.
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Post by maat on Sept 25, 2007 3:19:10 GMT
What is wrong with the Status Quo? By extending the Jurisdiction, one extends the power and the hold. Granting RECOGNITION, or refusing to grant recognition AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - THREATENING TO WITHDRAW RECOGNITION does the same thing. Sorry Wayseer - but I have personally seen this in action. In the case I am aware of one Grand Lodge was agreeable to share hospitalities with other GL's not officially recognised. An invite to share a few drinks and nibbles at a reception, no less. Word passed to another GL over a thousand miles away, who let it be known that this could/would lead to 'serious repercussions' if not a withdrawal of recognition. It happened! The people concerned were not despots.... one was very amicable obviously, the other may have been merely ignorant of what he was doing or, in the best light, of what 'those overseas who really count' mean by their rules. "Threats turn tools into weapons." - Self evident "Despotic rulers know this well." -Self evident. What I DID NOT SAY was that the rulers of UGLE are despots themselves. They merely see that edicts are obeyed and usually follow precedence. Status Quo. I did point out however, that how something is used can decide whether it is a tool or a weapon. And lets be honest, a hunter would see his gun as a tool, whereas the poor bunny would see it as a weapon. Maybe I am a bunny Maat PS - I was just answering a question that somebody else asked. (I lie to my mother (still) if she asks me if I like something she obviously likes. I really am a bunny )
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 3:34:12 GMT
It is not a matter of rather or not a person can have informed obediance. The issues, and pardon me for being reductionist, are: 1. Provide a moral justification for telling me, a veteran and former corrections officer, what I can do with my free time outside of lodge.
2. What is being protected, me or the Grand Lodge?
3. From what are they being protected?
4. Lodge and Grand Lodge sovereignty are least of my concerns. I am sovereign as a person and a Mason. Nobody, no matter how fancy his apron is, can take that away from me. Since I am sovereign in my own life please refer to the previous questions. If anyone can give me a logical and reasonable moral justification for the above questions and the reason for the questions I would actually fall in line.
5. Who has the monopoly on Freemasonry, or who owns the patent?
6. What do you do with an organization that promises one thing and delivers another (bait and switch)?
7. What moral justification does a grand lodge have for controlling a group of free men (a lodge)?
8. When did Masonry become a virtual group hug?
9. American mainstream Masonry put out a commercial using Brother Benjamin Franklin. Where is the intellectual honesty when the American mainstream system refused to give him Masonic honors at his funeral? Can we spurn him and then claim him when it may bring in more dues money?
10. The mainstream system rides on the backs of great men, who were not active in the Craft. How do we reconcile that with honesty?
11. We claim the brotherhood of all mankind yet several states refuse to recognize Prince Hall lodges as valid (all the other reasons that have been given have fallen apart - guess what is left over). How do we reconcile this when we claim a misapplication of a part of Anderson's Constitution as our loop hole?
12. We bailed out a rapist because it was improper to have a Past Grand Commander of the Knights Templar in jail. He jumped bail. How do we reconcile that with what we claim.
13. We expel or suspend Brothers for asking questions. We is the "free" in that "mason"?
14. We claim to accept all faiths, why can we not have only the Quran on the alter? Reconcile that.
15. We claim to educate. Well, you know the rest. Reconcile that and figure out why no one comes to lodge and many new Masons quit showing up to lodge soon after they are raised.
16. Think
Brandt (was that over the top?) getting ready to demit.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 25, 2007 4:05:47 GMT
Wow Brant, you must really hate everything about Masonry. Too bad.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 25, 2007 4:48:29 GMT
Brandt (was that over the top?) getting ready to demit. Ah, Dude. I know more than a few Malecraft Brothers who, at one time, felt as you do now. Please, could you hold off demitting until I put you in touch with one or another other of them? Please?
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 10:34:13 GMT
actually Dixie, I love Freemasonry - I just have no need for a baby sitter to make sure that I am not talking to the wrong kind of Masons. I can do that myself. The "mainstream" fraternity through their inability to answer the questions I have about the method and modes of governance just lost one of the Brothers that is known for getting things done. I am not the only one that is leaving.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 10:35:38 GMT
Karen, Feel free to put me in touch with whomever you wish. I can say "worry not", but it would be premature, there is more to follow.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 10:36:52 GMT
Brother Dixie, Can you put an answer to any of the questions that will be reasonable, moral and logical?
Brandt
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 25, 2007 11:03:27 GMT
Bro Brandt "Carpe Diem". You will do yourself and others no good remaining where you are unhappy and with which you no longer feel at one.
PM me if you want any support or advice and as I have said many a time and oft "First unto thine own self be true"
As you know I was a Malecraft Mason for 18 years, weighed it in the balance and found it to be wanting and "Demitted" and joined my new Obedience.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 25, 2007 11:12:05 GMT
"I have a number of issues with GL but that does not prevent me from obeying all signs and summonses - that Brethren, is true freedom"
Really? True Freedom? What strange Logic! I am reminded of the little mare in Orwell's Animal Farm who was happy to trade the Freedom of the farm in its early days when the Animals had overthrown the tyranical Farmer and instead liked the "freedom" of being harnessed between the shafts of the cart whilst being able to wear pretty ribbons.
From my personal experience of 18 years both Bros Maat and Brandt are correct in that they say, at least as regards what happens in the real world and not what is contained in the theory.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 25, 2007 11:44:44 GMT
Bro Lauderdale, one needs to also take care to not assume that the poor state of affairs that has plagued various constitutions in Freemasonry since the formation of the Antients and Moderns and their mutual exclusion is not repeated without being quickly re-looked at - one need only consider this with recent splits: the mutual exclusion of brethren between LDH and the Eastern Order needs to, in my view, be re-assessed with the mutual respect and recognition of differences LDH has in the past always displayed.
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 11:51:35 GMT
So mote it be.
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Post by corab on Sept 25, 2007 11:57:12 GMT
Well questioned, Bro:. Brandt!
It reminded me of something I wrote in my craft diary this morning.
"Transcending illusion necessarily means shaking off the shackless of redundant tradition, and always acting from the highest part of us, regardless of whom we are dealing with. Thus, no sycophancy, no holding tongues for the sake of rank or office.
Darkness is the absence of Light -- evil can only exist where good people fail to act."
I think you and I are thinking along similar lines.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 25, 2007 12:33:16 GMT
Sorry Wayseer - but I have personally seen this in action.
No need for the apology. You are not alone is witnessing the excesses of GL - but those who make up GL are still Brothers and I would ask you to treat them as such. I have accepted those who belong to similar honourable Orders outside of the 'mainstream' as Brothers.
Unless you do not consider them Brothers.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 25, 2007 12:38:54 GMT
... I am reminded of the little mare in Orwell's Animal Farm ...
Not a book with blank pages perchance?
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 25, 2007 12:58:13 GMT
No - no blank pages there (as far as I recall)... and thankfully not a book (normally) treated as VSL and opened as such in a Masonic Lodge.. though for some, there may be little difference between a volume with stories therein published and this cleverly inspiring book.
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Post by brandt on Sept 25, 2007 14:07:49 GMT
My decision has been made. I would like to thank all of you for listening to me unload and your comments have been quite helpful.
There are some exciting things happening, stay tuned.
Brandt
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Post by leonardo on Sept 25, 2007 14:28:09 GMT
My decision has been made. I would like to thank all of you for listening to me unload and your comments have been quite helpful. There are some exciting things happening, stay tuned. Brandt We will certainly stay tuned. I wish you well in whatever decisions you made. Good luck to you!
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