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Post by devoutfreemason on Oct 11, 2007 0:09:22 GMT
I had a really revealing conversation with a Brother and he taught me a lot as to the history and workings of the LDH in and outside of France. According to him that they are very different, and that the LDH outside of France is starting to move away from Besant in order to restablish more uniformity of workings with the LDH in France. I am absolutley no authority of the LDH in any juristiction but I am eager to learn more.
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Post by mike on Oct 11, 2007 7:24:53 GMT
I know that Steve and Cora can fill in the details but as a starter:
LDH is an international Obedience all LDHs are part of LDH. The Supreme Council of LDH is in France and LDH in other countries are Federations of that Supreme Council.
I only say this as you seem to have been given the impression that they are not organised in this way.
M
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Post by corab on Oct 11, 2007 11:28:54 GMT
Brn:., I'm afraid this is well above the likes of Bro:. Steve and myself, but I will see if I can get an answer from suitably qualified Bro:.
HGW,
Cora
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
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Post by jmd on Oct 13, 2007 6:57:56 GMT
For myself, it is this apparent move away from the Besant-Leadbeater influence in English-speaking countries that is increasingly making LDH more attractive.
I acknowledge the incredible work these two did in spreading Freemasonry in its LDH form outside continental Europe, especially along the route in which the TS established itself, and that as a consequence there was for a long time an appearance that not only LDH was somehow 'theosophical' in English speaking world, but that the various minor alterations from a basically otherwise Emulation-type ritual left a few things, from my perspective, amiss.
LDH International does not, for example, require a belief in a Supreme Being; nor does it work specifically 'to the Glory of God' - yet some Federation members (eg, the Australian Federation) does, as far as I am aware, require such.
There were moves under the previous equivalent to Grand Master to have these removed as a requirement - ie, to bring the individual freedom found in the main parts of LDH to be the norm. This would not of course preclude those who believe in a Supreme Being from joinging - quite the contrary; rather, it would not prevent those who do not hold such a definite belief from similarly becoming LDH Freemasons in those Federations.
It is my understanding that this issue is (in part only) what eventually caused the most recent split in LDH international.
As part of an international body, I would personally favour a move that allows, in each jurisdiction, such freedom of thought - left to the discretion of the individual Lodge, as the use of the ritual currently is. What I hope for is that 'uniformity', whether of ritual, or belief, or even of dress, is not an impulse that has any power.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Dec 13, 2007 19:55:12 GMT
Masonry is an ordered Body that performs rituals in a particular way. Ever since it's inception, LDH, had had two divergent rituals, one mainly French, the other Commonwealth. These have co-existed qite happily for about 100 years, but recently ther has been a push to make ALL follow one method. HENCE THE SPLIT.
When a Lodge has had a 100 year tradition of working in a particular manner, with portraits having no specific name, but embodying the principal of T.H.O.A.T.F. together with say not wearing gloves because of the climate, and those methods are directed to change, there is obviously going to be discontent.
We only wished to continue as before, but were informed we would have to change or suffer the consequences.
My visit to the Paris Convention in 1997, opened my eyes to the more 'Esoteric' workings here in Australasia, than France, where meetings seemed to be more for companionship, 'clubbing' etc. Our Ladies here wear ankle length skirts, some from South America & France were in 'mini' skirts. ~ most offputting during a ceremony. I was even told that many French Brn. attend meetings in everyday clothes with their shopping bags beside them. Is that not more of a 'coffee' club than, ceremonial ritual?
I have no objection to individual Lodges working in their own way, but to impose those workings on others, without exception was not the Masonry I had joined.
Regards, Hubert
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Post by lauderdale on Dec 13, 2007 20:07:55 GMT
Bro Hubert, having now been one whole year in LDH, (British Federation) , having been for the previous 18 years an UGLE Freemason, I have to say that I have not encountered the situations you mention in any of the LDH Lodges etc I have visited.
Our Rituals are performed with all due decorum and dignity, our Female Brethren are most decorously dressed and our Male Brethren are also suitably attired. In some Craft Lodges white gloves are worn but not in others, a choice left to the Lodge and its Brethren. We are very Esoteric in our approach , and I have yet to see a shopping bag in the Temple during a Meeting.
I can only state matters I have found them and have to say that I am very satisfied indeed with LDH Co-Freemasonry which has more than exceeded my expectations of it when I made the change one year ago.
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Post by maat on Dec 13, 2007 22:25:52 GMT
I think Hubert is talking about the workings in France, lauderdale. Very different to what we are used to. We had a french women visit our lodge and confirmed what Hubert said above.
I have rather got the impressions that Europeans work the Outer, and are much more effective in a physical sense, whereas we work the Inner and are much more effective in that area. Both workings are valid and worthy. Just my impressions of it all.
Maat
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Dec 13, 2007 22:37:54 GMT
Hi Lauderdale, Thanks for your comments, I was only refering to the French & some South American members I was in contact with at the Convention in Paris. I did attend an English meeting in London at 'Heckles Park' I think (HQ of LDH UK) and that was fine. ~ and they used the Commonwealth ritual. My comment was regarding prior to the split The International Body was considering making changes, which subsequently have not been proceeded with. I, also was very happy with LDH locally and in Australia where I attended their Conventions, prior to the split. But I did have concerns as to the heavy handed way the French ran the organisation, both Internationally and at Paris. As you are no doubt aware to visit one must have the current 'Mot Annuel' and in France, irrespective of your mother tongue, you must pronounce it as they say it or they refuse admittance! If you are unaware of that prior to giving it, great constenation and holdups occur, and when 700 attend a meeting this causes frustrations & delays.
Yours in Brotherhood, Hubert
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Post by lauderdale on Dec 13, 2007 22:58:26 GMT
Possibly Tekels Park , Camberley, Surrey. St Francis Lodge meets there. Our HQ is at Hexagon House in Surbiton, also in Surrey.
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Post by corab on Dec 13, 2007 23:10:19 GMT
Bro:. Hubert, Masonry is an ordered Body that performs rituals in a particular way. Ever since it's inception, LDH, had had two divergent rituals, one mainly French, the other Commonwealth. These have co-existed qite happily for about 100 years, but recently ther has been a push to make ALL follow one method. That is manifestly incorrect. Our lodges are actively encouraged to look beyond the pale and explore the great wealth of different rituals that are at present available within the Order. In our Federation alone, 5 different rituals are in use. Perhaps you would care to quantify how recent your "recently" is? h.g.w., Cora
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Post by corab on Dec 13, 2007 23:16:31 GMT
Bro:. Hubert, As you are no doubt aware to visit one must have the current 'Mot Annuel' and in France, irrespective of your mother tongue, you must pronounce it as they say it or they refuse admittance! If you are unaware of that prior to giving it, great constenation and holdups occur, and when 700 attend a meeting this causes frustrations & delays. This is far from my own experience -- we had no such difficulties at our International Convention this year, and all 700+ of us quickly found our respective ways in. What was then, is not now, Brother -- please do not tar the present organisation with the brush of your past experience. h.g.w., Cora
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Dec 13, 2007 23:40:40 GMT
Hi Cora, Also good to hear from you. Yes, I am talking of the past, but it was those experiences that formed my impressions of LDH. Maybee the split has caused some things to be re-evaluated, which is good.
My 'recently' was arround 1997~2002 when these things occured. Nodur was adamant at the time that we would have to use the 'French' workings predominantly, with only occasional use of our current ritual as an exception.
I was only ever advised of these two rituals, and certainly was not cognisant of a further 3!
Glad to hear you attended the International Convention (I was at the 1997 one). Have things improved? We had Ear phones in the main hall untill Nordur took over as french was only spoken, but he only spoke Icelandic & English, so then the french needed earphones. But it was different in the various committees, where manual interpreters were being used. The 'chair' of my particular group ruled only french be spoken & no translations, but international delegates were expected to vote on proposals. Has that now been sorted?
If all of the above has changed, perhaps we should look at forming Brotherly bonds between LDH, The Eastern Order, and all other 'Mixed' groupings as a 'blueprint' for future working with Malecraft/Co-masonry unification?
W.H.G.W, yours in Brotherhood, Hubert
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imakegarb
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Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Dec 14, 2007 0:00:25 GMT
We are "unified" already. It just is not generally seen. It is that blindness, not the fact, that is at issue. Yes, I know there's politics involved and I'm not at the center of things and I juuuuuuust don't understand. And then there's the niceties to be observed, papers to be shuffled and filled out and diplomacy to be observed and yawning etc. I know that. But, I think, my observation is correct, not withstanding.
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Post by corab on Dec 14, 2007 0:46:23 GMT
My 'recently' was arround 1997~2002 when these things occured. Thank you for clarifying that. It predates my time, so without referencing this I cannot comment on this -- it does, however, strike me as unlikely. I wasn't "advised" either -- I sought out and experienced. These five are currently in use in the British Federation; I believe there are others throughout the Order. I have no standard to compare my experience to, but what I saw and experienced was very positive. The ceremonies were conducted in the three official languages of the Order, with additional translation services where required. I am told translation services were available throughout the event. I'm not convinced such a 'blueprint' is needed. From where I'm standing, there is a need for the three different 'streams' in freemasonry (masculine, feminine and mixed), and I have neither need nor desire to change that. h.g.w., Cora
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Post by cezarek on Dec 16, 2007 20:02:32 GMT
This is far from my own experience -- we had no such difficulties at our International Convention this year, and all 700+ of us quickly found our respective ways in. Were you there? Did we meet? I remember speaking briefly to a lady from the British Federation just by the coffee bar at the bottom of the stairs. I was there with the delegation from the Polish Federation. If I said I was wearing a dark suit and apron I don't think that would be much help. ;D As for the translation thing, it is always a mammoth task when people from so many countries are at a conference, notwithstanding the cost of simultaneous translation, which would surprise most people (at most conferences, interpreters only work for short bursts and have to have long breaks between them: it is an exhausting job, and highly skilled therefore lucrative/expensive), so they really did very well to have everything interpreted between French, English and Spanish! Considering all the issues that can affect the translation and understanding of propositions, amendments, regulations, minutes etc and all the potential problems therein, there was a remarkable degree of cohesion. Jon
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Post by corab on Dec 16, 2007 22:56:55 GMT
Hi John, Were you there? Did we meet? I remember speaking briefly to a lady from the British Federation just by the coffee bar at the bottom of the stairs. I was there with the delegation from the Polish Federation. If I said I was wearing a dark suit and apron I don't think that would be much help. ;D Yes, I was indeed, and I do seem to recall exchanging a few words with a Bro:. from the Polish Federation. However, if the lady you spoke with spoke Polish, you met my mentor. We have been known to be mixed up occasionally as we are similar in many ways, save that she's 30 degrees ahead of me;-) And Polish! Did you go to the Installation of the new Grand Master? I thought it was very cool the way the RWM and Wardens delivered their part in one of the 3 official languages, and swapped languages once the new GM had been installed. ;D
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Post by cezarek on Dec 17, 2007 19:50:20 GMT
Yes, I was indeed, and I do seem to recall exchanging a few words with a Bro:. from the Polish Federation. However, if the lady you spoke with spoke Polish, you met my mentor. We have been known to be mixed up occasionally as we are similar in many ways, save that she's 30 degrees ahead of me;-) All most certainly me, and we spoke in English - I have a nice Yorkshire accent if that helps jog the memory. ;D For me the whole International Convent passed in a wonderful daze - I remember how many different colours the regalia were, and the initiation afterwards (a Brother and Sister from my lodge as well as the lady from the Paris lodge) was wonderful. It's hard to imagine the effect it must have had when the hoodwinks were removed and they were in the West of that enormous room with hundreds of Brothers and Sisters before them! And Polish! Did you go to the Installation of the new Grand Master? I thought it was very cool the way the RWM and Wardens delivered their part in one of the 3 official languages, and swapped languages once the new GM had been installed. ;D There's a strange thing, probably belonging in a thread in the Esoteric section of the board, about our ritual in other languages. When I was initiated, my Polish was less than perfect (four years' worth of hard practise worse than it is now), yet I understood everything. When attending work done in French, even quite complicated things seem clear, not just things which I know in the Polish version. There is something very special here...
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Post by corab on Dec 18, 2007 12:56:48 GMT
All most certainly me, and we spoke in English - I have a nice Yorkshire accent if that helps jog the memory. ;D He-he-he -- talk about coincidence! Gosh, didn't it just? Can't wait till the next one! Oh they were in your lodge? How are they doing now? It must indeed have been quite something for them. Do you work the Continental Ritual in your lodge? Their initiation was my first encounter with an initiation under the Continental Working, and I was gobsmacked at their Symbolical Journeys ..! Ours are tame compared to that*LOL*. We now have a lodge working Continental in our own Federation, so I hope to go and witness another initiation soon. I noticed that in the two ceremonies in Paris, myself. My French is far from perfect, and my knowledge of Spanish and Polish non-existent, but I, too, found that I could follow perfectly what was going on -- even if it was a very different ritual to my own. Proof once more, that Freemasonry truly IS Universal. h.g.w., Cora
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Post by corab on Dec 18, 2007 13:09:39 GMT
I had a really revealing conversation with a Brother and he taught me a lot as to the history and workings of the LDH in and outside of France. According to him that they are very different, and that the LDH outside of France is starting to move away from Besant in order to restablish more uniformity of workings with the LDH in France. I am absolutley no authority of the LDH in any juristiction but I am eager to learn more. In a very much delayed attempt to answer this query ... Every lodge in our entire worldwide Order is at liberty, subject to ballot in open lodge and subsequent amendment of its byelaws, to elect to work any of the rituals currently approved by the Supreme Council. Seeing as it is a lodge's autonomous decision to choose the ritual it will work (as long as it is one currently approved by the Supreme Council) it is practically impossible to make a statement such as made by your friend with any degree of certainty. I would imagine the statement is based on limited observation erroneously extrapolated to apply to the entire worldwide Order. S&F, Cora
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Post by cezarek on Dec 20, 2007 14:51:03 GMT
Do you work the Continental Ritual in your lodge? Their initiation was my first encounter with an initiation under the Continental Working, and I was gobsmacked at their Symbolical Journeys ..! Ours are tame compared to that*LOL*. We now have a lodge working Continental in our own Federation, so I hope to go and witness another initiation soon. All lodges here work the Continental Working (AASR) - I haven't really seen anything else except for the French Rite that Grand Orient uses which is quite similar. In AASR, the journeys are indeed a trial. I must say the Lauderdale Working sounds amazing, and I hope to attend a lodge in The British Federation next year - my visits home never seem to coincide, but I'll try to sort that out soon! S & F, Jon
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