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Post by bevan on Apr 27, 2005 9:52:21 GMT
Russell, I reckon that hijacking of one's servitor is made less likely if you treat them right. With more nasty servitors, the "treat them mean, keep them keen" approach sometimes works better. I once helped construct a very powerful servitor online that looks after all our wishes as long as we continue to promise her cookies and milk. Works a real treat as long as we keep her alive. However, she has developed a worrying habit of taking to wearing a smoking jacket. This was definately unintended. Some of us think she's having turn-of-the century aspirations.
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Post by Yoki on Apr 27, 2005 10:07:55 GMT
When I started this thread I had no doubt that the entities that visit our lodge were and are benign, in fact I was lead to understand that the help prompt while ceremonies are in progress. Neither do I think that they are earth bound and need to be moved on. I understand that they are old members who no longer have a physical body and like us enjoy participating, as they did when they had body of flesh and blood. As like attracts like, I am pretty certain various types of unwanted spooks and assorted ghostly bodies would not make it into a lodge of good intent, plus a tyled lodge is a lodge that has set up protection.
Written by Russell As I indicated in another thread, it is possible and relatively common to have dark entities intervene with humans. - to bend the humans to other agendas - to feed off the humans - to disable the light worker humans for millennia.
I don't know much about the above subject but have read Robert Bruce's(an Australian) second book which covers this sort of thing. I enjoyed his first book Astral Dynamics so decided to read this second one, the exact title escapes me .It frightened the heck out of me and paints quite a bleak picture of how influenced humanity is by these things. Crossing running water is a supposed method of shaking one loose, and he went on to say that modern plumbing has been to their disadvantage. I don't know if all that this author writes is true, it really does not bear thinking about. His forum was the very first I ever joined and what I do know is that some people became very obsessed ,not only did it rule their world view but they seem to waver self responsibility blaming all their ills on evil spirits.
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Post by a on Apr 27, 2005 10:43:31 GMT
As like attracts like, I am pretty certain various types of unwanted spooks and assorted ghostly bodies would not make it into a lodge of good intent, plus a tyled lodge is a lodge that has set up protection. Taylorsman, let me pick on you (as I know you and know you are a tyler), the next time you Tyle your lodge, think about this. Without proper protection things could I guess get very dark behind those doors, yet the darkness could be invisible to those who have become so accustomed to it.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 27, 2005 11:18:53 GMT
Ok Stewart. So there I am, at Clerkenwell, outside the Door of the Lodge, with Sword, and probably a book to read or The Times as being a Tyler involves a few bursts of activity and lots of sitting around. What am I likely to encounter there? Perhaps a Brother who is late and seeks admission, another Tyler getting the equipment for this Lodge. Supernatural entities? I seriously doubt it. Now it is said that CLMC at Clerkenwell is haunted as it was an old Assize Court and some of those tried there were sentenced to death in bygone days. Certainly that old part of London is redolent in atmosphere. Personally I have never had any feelings of anything adverse there but perhaps I was not attuned. I cannot recall any feelings of being watched when alone, drops in temperature or anything which has "spooked me".
One thing I would say is that my Lodge there being over 100 years old we read the Ancient Minutes at each Meeting and occasionally when I am in the Lodge and not Tyling when the Secretary has read the proceedings of the Meeting of 100 years ago I have had the feeling that just possibly the spirits of those long dead Brethren are there, but that could be a mixture of wishful thinking and sentimetality.
I have experienced psychic manifestations but not at Craft Meetings. In some of the Higher Degrees, well that's a different story.
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Post by bevan on Apr 27, 2005 14:53:35 GMT
ruff, you just missed Peter Carrol & Maybe Logic's online course in Chaos Magick (or maybe not)... See www.maybelogic.org/courses.htm for more info. I believe that Spirit tends to Order whereas Matter tends to Chaos. Therefore "Ordo Ab Chao" is to my mind quite possible. Anyway, Carrol would not make a good buddhist and R.A.Wilson and him won't let me say any form of the verb "to be". Bastards! I won't be handing over my mind (and money) to them.
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Post by whistler on Apr 27, 2005 19:05:30 GMT
A common disabling device is an "etheric" black box connected either to the base of the spine or the back of the head. Cheers Russell Hi Russell, A lot of this debate depends on the relationship that a person creates with those in spirit with whom they work, how they are understood and the trust created. With the trust comes the knowledge that one is never going to be put in a situation that one can't handle. Sometimes when confonted with an incident that appears a bit alarming, it is good to remember the connection. . When that relationship is strong - such things as the etheric black boxes etc are not a consideration
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Post by hollandr on Apr 27, 2005 22:19:33 GMT
Hi Russell, A lot of this debate depends on the relationship that a person creates with those in spirit with whom they work, how they are understood and the trust created. With the trust comes the knowledge that one is never going to be put in a situation that one can't handle. Sometimes when confonted with an incident that appears a bit alarming, it is good to remember the connection. . When that relationship is strong - such things as the etheric black boxes etc are not a consideration Hello Lynn Generally I agree with you but: - not all those that cry "lord, lord" will be saved - is your statement about blackboxes based on knowledge or hope? So, while one ought not to be alarmist, I have met a surprising number of people deliberately disabled with etheric devices and attendant entities and energy hooks. Cheers Russell
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 27, 2005 23:42:40 GMT
"'Ordo Ab Chao' is to my mind quite possible."
Ordo Ab Chao is just the deliberately punning Order of Kaos styled as a latinised motto: O.K. translates the Sanskrit svas tik, "All is Well" (=swastika), which in Old English is wes hael, "Be hale (& hearty)!" Doubtless some see Polynesian Tiki in tik: god, man, finger, phallus (hence perhaps d1ck).
"Anyway, Carrol would not make a good buddhist and R.A.Wilson and him won't let me say any form of the verb "to be"."
They are challenging you to defy them. Go tell them to f- off! Being and becoming are AHIH, Eheieh, "I am that I am": the expulsion of pneuma which gives life to the Adam of Magical creation. The final test is when you must strike out at the teacher, defeating him utterly. Then the apprentice has become master.
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Post by whistler on Apr 28, 2005 0:53:10 GMT
Hello Lynn Generally I agree with you but: - not all those that cry "lord, lord" will be saved - is your statement about blackboxes based on knowledge or hope? So, while one ought not to be alarmist, I have met a surprising number of people deliberately disabled with etheric devices and attendant entities and energy hooks. Cheers Russell Hi Russell - It is Not about Lord Lord will be saved. it is about being confident with whom one is working. When I get into or are confronted with situations, on both the earth plain, or working on Spiritual matters , that alarm or seem to cause worry, It is a case of putting the thought out " Hey hope you know what you are doing" and then get stuck into working through the problem... . re the black box I had never heard of it before you mentioned it _ I sure it works for some and that is fine - I am always open to peoples views and theory - Russell keep them coming. For me personally - just working with those in spirit that are available to me, seems OK, I haven't been let down yet I just find I get all the assistance I have ever needed (not wanted) by asking for it
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Post by hollandr on Apr 28, 2005 1:49:18 GMT
It is a case of putting the thought out " Hey hope you know what you are doing" and then get stuck into working through the problem... . ...... I haven't been let down yet Lynn I am in the same position - leap forward into what is placed in front of me and have faith in the patrons. Works well for me. But I see many people for whom that has not worked and they can be stuck for millennia - waiting for death as a release from hopelessness but fearing the next life will be the same. So I raise the proposition in case someone recognises themselves. The core of the problem is the same as the question as to why god allows evil. Cheers Russell
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Post by whistler on Apr 28, 2005 3:40:17 GMT
Hi Russell Does evil really exist, in a world of cause and effect. You should expect at some time to find a reason for everything
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Post by hollandr on Apr 28, 2005 4:49:41 GMT
Hi Russell Does evil really exist, in a world of cause and effect. You should expect at some time to find a reason for everything I was using the term loosely. From a more technical point of view we have a number of less helpful influences in the planet. For example both the logoi of Saturn and Mars are attracting adherents in the Middle East (for different agendas) and have been so doing for millennia. Is that evil? From a human level perhaps. But from a solar systemic level, there is a certain amount of competition amongst the planetary logoi for influence and position. If we see children doing this at play, we might well be tolerant of their learning to get along and learning about power and influence. But we can do that because we are well above the troubles. When we are below the troubles we may take another view. For example we might consider that we see evil empires. One might also consider influences coming from outside the solar system. And are there perhaps influences arising from the substance of the planet not being sacred? And are there positive initiatives from outside the solar system that have been pushed off track? So the question is complex and I used shorthand. Cheers Russell
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Post by bevan on Apr 28, 2005 9:33:36 GMT
ruff, I get all muddled with language games. When I referenced 'Ordo Ab Chao' I was saying that I believe we can achieve order out of the chaos of our material world. I believe that Spirit tends to Order whilst matter tends to Chaos.
They are challenging you to defy them. Go tell them to f- off! Is it a case of damned if I do and damned if I don't? Nah, think I'll simply drop my energetic apron strings over this one... I have many other people I need to f-off before them...
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 28, 2005 23:24:04 GMT
bevan,
I said They are challenging you to defy them. Go tell them to f- off! not in jest at all. The entire philosophy of the Chaos system is DIY: no hierarchies, no top-down BS. If they try to hand you a line about not using existential predicates, they must be mickey-taking Aleister Crowley, who instructed his pupils to refrain from referring to themselves in the first person. He needed a good kick in the nuts, too, and the trouble was no-one gave it to him (a kick in the nuts, that is).
It is a challenge, a test to see if you have the balls, magically speaking. How do we get power? Do we wait for power to be given to us?? Do we need to ask for permission???
NO! WE TAKE POWER!!
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Post by a on Apr 29, 2005 6:17:08 GMT
Ruff
I am impressed, you revolutionary!!!
From the little that I know of such things surely do you need to ask (knock at the door) before you can take the power that you already have?
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 29, 2005 6:50:44 GMT
Well, no, stewart; that's the whole point of Chaos Magic (or one of them): there is no Temple or Mystery School or arcane Order to join, you study and practise whatever you want, mixing and matching systems from anywhere on the spectrum. It's pure Magical Anarcho-Syndicalism: the workers seize the means of production and proceed to throw a block party.
It's Postmodern, self-mocking, anti-ideology: its favourite emblem is the Chaosphere, a blob of radiant darkness firing forth darts of chaotic creativity, which exists within everyone but can only rarely, if at all, be accessed directly. It is considered to be a Magnox reactor of Magical power: the potential for danger is there, but it is a force which must be engaged with, if only on an intellectual level.
All very useful, considering that most people nowadays aren't particularly sure what they believe any more. They know what they should believe, but they aren't certain that they do. Catastrophic news for Magical practitioners.
So, what do you do if you are an Atheist studying the Occult? You can't even be a Satanist. The Chaoist solution is to liberate your belief. Say to yourself you're going to believe six different things on six days of the week. It's surprising how easy it becomes. Another idea is to make up a god out of collaged images, or randomly-generated, so that there is at least some focus for your Magical concentration. This pseudo-deity becomes a kind of lens through which the intention of the practitioner can be beamed to effect external or internal changes.
Refreshing and provocative, we who do have strong beliefs ought to engage with this critique of human faith.
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Post by a on Apr 29, 2005 8:18:08 GMT
Now this is where my inexperience in magical theory shows itself. And I am willing to admit here (sorry Taylorsman) but I may be wrong.
Surely all that any magical society, esoteric fraternity, etc can do is offer you tools.
If you recognise the tools for what they are you can use them as keys. But evern so to enable you to find the lock that these keys will open, you have to look inwards,and knock at the door of yourself? When you do this, the keys will turn and you will evolve.
But looking externally will I think just keep you on a neverending search for something that you can find within yourself.
That all said knowing where to look is a huge problem, which is why the societies and fraternities have such a vital role to play, for they introduce you to the tools.
And they do it in a controlled way to ensure that you are ready to use them properly without damage.
But these tools are also all around us for those who are able to see them.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 29, 2005 8:50:08 GMT
For once I can agree with you, you could be wrong Stewart. So could I, Russell, Ruff, Ingo, Giovanni, Whistler or anyone else as there is no right nor wrong in this matter.
Unlike a Religion where there are Doctrines and Dogmas, even pettyfogging rules on irksome points of detail in some cases, one can follow one's own lead in this field with no-one to dare say you nay.
As you so rightly say we are given the tools and it is up to us how we apply them, what material we have to work on, and what we fashion according to our skills. Give a moron a chisel and he will possibly gouge something or someone with it, but in the hands of the craftsman it can fashion objects of practical use or aesthetic beauty, sometimes both.
I don't go in for all this Chaos Theory, any more than I do all the Quantum stuff that is swilling around these days , simply not my scene, but I do agree that those of the Right Hand Path should work to preserve Order and Harmony in both the Microcosm and the Macrocosm. If Freemasonry in whatever version helps one to do this , or if Religion is your vehicle, or Politics your Toolkit then fair play to you. All of these can be used for good or ill, it's the choice of the Individual.
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Post by bevan on Apr 29, 2005 9:32:55 GMT
NO! WE TAKE POWER!! Oer, I've come over all feint... But seriously ruff, I understand what you're on about. However, I seriously couldn't care less. I desire freedom from the desire of power. I want to not want. Even though we probably receive more power by giving it away I don't want it...!!! Take it back, take it back....!!!
"It is a strange desire, to seek power, and to lose liberty; or to seek power over others, and to lose power over a man's self." - The Bacon Meister
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Post by a on Apr 29, 2005 12:46:27 GMT
I desire freedom from the desire of power. I want to not want. Could I suggest that achieving the first may be rather easier than achieving the second.
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