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Post by Yoki on Jul 30, 2005 1:24:03 GMT
This is a subject I have giving some consideration to and thought to seek input from others who frequent and contribute to this Forum. We have been taught that emotions fall into two categories the good and the bad. This also occurs because the first set makes us feel good and the others have the reverse effect . Societal expectations since the days of the Victorian have sort to repress and hold feelings in check and the stiff upper lip still prevails. This Victorian attitude was also evident within spiritual groups such as Theosophy who had their roots within the 1800.If one was to ascend then our primitive emotions were to be overcome and at the very least held in cheque. This was evident in my fathers attitude, a good Theosophist from the fifties whose emotions were stuffed down as deeply as he was able; this was his way of controlling them . To my mind emotions and feeling were given to us for a prepose they are part of our learning and essential to our wellbeing. Fear gives us fight or flight and could be instrumental in saving your lives, anger can destroy or be used to motivate .I have read that suppressed anger becomes depression, cant say if that's true or not but depression can be turned into a evolutionary tool ,all be it a difficult one. Love feels good so we strive for it, but it can also become obsessive. How does all of this equate to the esoteric, emotions bridge our body and soul, maybe this is how the later experiences the physical. Within the chakra system anger etc are considered part of the lower chakras and again love is among the highest. When I joined Co Free masonry an older member informed me that a MMs apron symbolised the cutting off of the lower emotions held within the lower chakras and although I tried to explain my point of view I gave up. Maybe its because then as even now I am formulating something that is still in the abstract. To my mind it is essential that we express how we feel, let it out, shout, cry and laugh. Naturally as in all things it is important to tread the middle path. To much can harm just as can to little.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 30, 2005 4:25:51 GMT
Yoki
Each of the chakras relates to a plane and each plane/chakra can be divided into 7 subplanes 49 sub-sub-planes etc.
Each of those subplane energy bands has characteristics that make them useful for particular activities ranging from the vicious to the virtuous. This is communicated in the EA TB where jacobs ladder has as many rungs as there are virtues (and vices).
Each chakra has an entity (generally a nature spirit) to manage the substance/energy of the chakra. For example the entity of the sacral chakra is the one we teach to swim or dance. Note how dancing cannot be computed by the mind (mental entity) but is easily managed (generally) by the physical entity of the sacral chakra. If that entity has been traumatised or repressed it may not able to coordinate the energy flows of the physical body with sufficient subtlety to manage a dance.
Now these entities can be interfered with from outside so that some impulses that come through our physical body, emotions or mind may not be ours. Part of our task is to rehabilitate these beings and cleanse our energy bodies of dense substance so that the outside impulses of greed, anger, jealousy do not affect us. And of course in that process of cleansing we have outgrown those impulses where they arise internally.
Now when a chakra entity is rehabilitated it will do things without being told. For example we might remember something important just as we leave the house. Or we may drop a knife and our foot moves out of the way faster than we can think.
There are higher functions possible too.
You can imagine what happens when someone represses their emotions. To start with they have problems forming close relationships. And the repression of emotions makes the energy feed to the physical body quite lumpy so that fine motor skills suffer. There may be accident-proneness too.
There are more subtle levels to this, primarily surrounding the instinct for survival. See if you can work out what that is and where in the energy system and therefore in the physical body.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by Yoki on Jul 30, 2005 5:44:37 GMT
I don't know if I entirely agree with you Russel. Perhaps I like my own autonomy to much to comprehend that each chakra has its own entity attached. I am no great expert but it seems that self responsibility is important, it would be so easy to say the little being attached to my base chakra made me do it. Plus the sheer numbers to carry out such work would be vast at least 47 billion to work with 6 billion humans. offcourse its always possible but for me the jury's still out. You talk about outgrowing anger ,my point being that anger is part of who we are and can be utilised ,naturally to let it get out of control is not desirable .I have experienced the white heat behind angry and remember thinking at the time that's interesting ,there's quite a force here( mind you the pause never stopped me letting rip verbally). Maybe its this force that can be utilised even neutralized and channelled in an other way. Then again it could be that this force is one and the same i.e. the force behind anger is the same force as that behind love.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 30, 2005 6:25:51 GMT
Yoki
>Perhaps I like my own autonomy to much to comprehend that each chakra has its own entity attached.
Perhaps you might like to consider if each cell has its own intelligence (ie an intelligent entity).
And what about the atoms? Do they have intelligence too? If they have life then they have intelligence.
But at the end of the day there is a choice between testing hypotheses and belief and that is a personal choice.
But perhaps the fabled Masonic science is able to test the above hypotheses.
How would we construct an experiment?
As far as anger goes, you might like to consider if there are some enjoyable aspects to the strong energy flows available with anger. And that get close to my questions about the nature and location of the self-preservation instinct
Cheers
Russell
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Post by a on Jul 30, 2005 9:24:05 GMT
Yoki
As with most people I have been through the spectrum of emotions in my life, from intense lonliness (more than most I suspect in this specific regard) to pure love, through relative wealth and relative poverty, having to watch a close loved one deteriorate year on year, month on month, to the stage where the doctors could not tell me how long there was left. I have been dealt some harsh blows which broke me by those who should know better, and have also enjoyed the sheer beauty of human kindness during some very troubled times. I have also made plenty of mistakes along the way.
It is my opinion, from my personal experience, that repressing emotions is not a good thing. Much better to let it out, to listen to it, to understand it, to incorporate it and build from it. Though this process is far fom easy and can in some cases take months and years.
I would suggest that giving your emotions such freedom would, from my experience, help your esoteric growth enormously.
In time you learn to feel the energies of these emotions, which does offer you a whole new perspective on life.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Jul 30, 2005 11:43:46 GMT
I am no theosophist, nor do I come to the original question posed by Yoki from a perspective that seeks to understand feelings from a particular view of the chakras.
Personally, I do not hold '[...]that emotions fall into two categories: the good and the bad'.
Rather, if I had to try to characterise emotions, I would perhaps do away with the term and seek to understand how feelings generally relate to the human being. Here the first reflection that comes to mind is the very close rapport this has to the manner in which something either draws me nearer or pushes me further away - perhaps, then, in this sense there is a dualist characteristic.
What I also note, however, is that if I am drawn away, I become far clearer in my intellectual reflections, whereas if I am drawn towards, I become more 'asleep' and embrace in empathy that towards which I seek to somehow unite.
The withdrawing leads to an increased intellectual appreciation, whereas the coming closer to a deeper love.
With regards to the wearing of the apron, and noting that in some constitutions the Entered Apprentice's apron is worn with the flap upwards (this is of course not universally the case), and that, of course, it is worn as an apron, and thus over the region where the lower chakras are located, much symbolic reflection may be made - including the sublimation of the energies typically described for these multi-petalled 'flowers'.
With the wearing of the apron, then, it may also be noted that though the base chakra (of four petals, reminiscent of the very square worn) is always covered. This is not the case for the 'navel' chakra (actually, the svadhistana chakra is a little lower than the navel): here, the chakra that is at times described as the 'seat of emotions' is 'freed' from being properly covered once the second degree is attained (the 'flap' is no longer pointing up, thus no longer is it properly covering the area).
If one wants to make these correlations, however, I would suggest that not only the shape of the apron, the number of petals of the chakra, nor the location of the chakras and the manner in which the apron is worn be reflected on, but also the respective colours of each. Here we enter something of equal importance: the apron is white and is made, symbolically, from a single lambskin.
For myself at any rate, this becomes of greater esoteric significance.
But back to emotions for a little while.
Some have tried to number the basic human emotions (some to six, such as the well known work of Ekman et al. - joy, sadness, surprise, revoltion, anger, and awe; others to five, or even to three, such as Jensen's list of a 'core' of ecstasy, terror, and despair, from which the others are said to be interminglings).
What can be seen from these is not so much that any have moral qualities, but rather that a particular moral insight may give rise to an emotive response (those who hold an emotivist ethical view will of course simply here put the cart and horse in reverse order).
.... I have possibly rambled on in various directions already too much - simply trying to discern the differences between, on the one hand, characteristics and insight into emotions and feeling, and, on the other, reflective symbolic thought on the apron and its wearing and the chakras mentioned.
Primarily, as Freemasons, what are we wearing, and what is its symbolic, allegorical, and esoteric import? This is a question brought by Yoki well worth reflecting on!
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Post by maat on Aug 12, 2005 0:10:30 GMT
I have really enjoyed this thread and had some interesting drives home (thinking time) pondering the matter.
It was during this pondering time that the result of "excesses" of emotion was bought sharply into focus by the murder of a mother by her son just a few doors up from where I work. The much loved son has Down's Syndrome which makes the whole happening particularly poignant. This incident led me to wonder whether, at the other end of the scale - eg smothering possessive mother love - there is an equal intellectual incapacity (no offence intended should I have chosen inappropriate wording here) and if so one can see why we should judge no one.
Again it gets back to those old Masonic Pillars - and taking the middle way.
JMD - really liked your reply.
Maat
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Post by Yoki on Aug 22, 2005 5:44:00 GMT
The master of our lodge invited brethren to her house on Sunday to view the film, What the bleep do you know. After viewing this I can highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Esoteric and or the whys and wherefores of reality as we think it is. One aspect of this movie talked about emotions and how in essence they are chemical, literally a rush and one we can get addicted to. With no bad or good ones but just an other means for the observer i.e. our eternal self's to experience the physical. Makes sense to me and throws more light on what I was trying to grasp at the beginning of this post.
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Post by hollandr on Aug 22, 2005 6:10:41 GMT
> emotions and how in essence they are chemical
Yoki
I think that the hidden mysteries of nature and science might have something more to tell us here.
For example what is the mechanism for "love at first sight"?
Cheers
Russell
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Post by whistler on Aug 22, 2005 19:18:45 GMT
. One aspect of this movie talked about emotions and how in essence they are chemical, literally a rush and one we can get addicted to. . Interesting Yoki, I have just read an article in a Magazine called Wired..titled "Women Sex and the science of Orgasm" It is about the search for a Female "Viagra" seen to be a cash winner if they can. Viagra being worth $2.7 Billion. The area's being worked on were in the brain not the privates . Working on areas of the brain people with spinal injury's who had never felt anything below the waist for years had the same orgasmic response as normal women. No Bro this is not a Porno Post, it is a wonder at the power house our brain is. Maybe it is not so difficult to send words from a brain to a Speaker. Therefore perhaps if we remove brains from a number of people put them in jars, by correctly applying chemicals those brains could have a complete life from babyhood to old age - (need the speakers to know what is going on but maybe we could follow the brains life style on an LCD). Many esoteric teachers tell that the Human body is just a suitcase for the soul.. We chop off legs, arms, swap, hearts remove Eyes, spleens. Obviously we could do with a redesign, ask anybody with worn out knees or hips . Any suggestions
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Post by Yoki on Aug 22, 2005 21:50:58 GMT
Whistler-- If we cut of our head and were able to keep it alive in a jar yes I believe we could still have a physical experience but the trick would be to keep it alive, that is what the rest of the body is for. Offcourse it is also needed for reproduction and all that goes with it. My son and I speculate that there are two possibilities for our existence the first being the perpetuation of our species and the other is the evolution of our souls, maybe its a bit of both.
Russel-- mechanism for "love at first sight"? I would imagine chemicals do have a lot to do with it, but then there is the possibility of reincarnation and soul recognition. It would be no surprise that I place more importance on the later, and believe that these things are set up prior to birth.
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Post by hollandr on Aug 22, 2005 22:03:00 GMT
>I would imagine chemicals do have a lot to do with it, but then there is the possibility of reincarnation and soul recognition.
Yoki
The question for me at this point is if the chemicals follow after the soul recognition. If so then the chemicals are more a symptom than a cause.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Aug 23, 2005 0:38:45 GMT
Whistler said
"Many esoteric teachers tell that the Human body is just a suitcase for the soul.. We chop off legs, arms, swap, hearts remove Eyes, spleens. Obviously we could do with a redesign, ask anybody with worn out knees or hips . Any suggestions"
I loved the imagery of "suitcase for the soul" Whistler. I have always thought of the body as the car and the Soul as the driver. Here is something you may find thought provoking.
"SEVEN are the mansions of the house of the MIGHTY; THREE guards the portal of each house from the darkness; FIFTEEN the ways that lead to DUAT, TWELVE are the houses of the LORDS OF ILLUSION, facing four ways, each of them different. FORTY AND TWO the great powers, judging the DEAD who seek for the portal. FOUR are the SONS OF HORUS, TWO are the GUARDS OF EAST AND WEST-ISIS, the mother who pleads for her children, QUEEN of the moon, reflecting the SUN. BA is the essence, living forever. KA is the Shadow that man knows as life. BA cometh not until KA is incarnate. These are mysteries to preserve through the ages.
……THREE are the qualities of GOD in his LIGHT-home: INFINITE POWER, INFINITE WISDOM, INFINITE LOVE."
The Emerald Tablets of Thoth (Tablet XIV) - as translated by Doreal
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Post by whistler on Aug 23, 2005 2:15:21 GMT
yOKI, It reminds me of a SCI Fi I read years ago, a head being kept alive for thousands of years - but was bored stiff, because it had relived all its experiences again and again and wanted to be terminated.... Maat In my musing re the brain in a bottle, I am sure it could be kept alive just as we cart livers and hearts around. so starting with our fresh new brain - i suspect the brain chemically alters as it ages - so by introducing those chemicals we can start the business - mm .. what signal do we give a brain for it to think I am hungry, and then we can give it another to think it is hungry..... mmmm
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Aug 23, 2005 3:19:09 GMT
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Post by whistler on Aug 24, 2005 9:38:21 GMT
Thanks Ruff, But no from memory it was travellers going somewhere passing the complaining head _ might even have been a Jose' Farmers story...
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Post by maat on Aug 25, 2005 0:36:54 GMT
During my previous post I mentioned the number 42.
Three, fifteen, twelve, four - are numbers we are all familiar with in Freemasonry. But I was not familiar with 42 and was wondering about it.... knocked at that old door again and this is "what fell into my hands" (really it popped up on the computer when I was looking for something else.)
"another allusion to the principle of correspondence is God's answer to Moses, when he asks His name: Eheieh Asher Eheieh, that is, "I am what I am" I am (Spirit, high) what I am (matter, below). In Gematria (the numerical value of the Hebrew letters composing the words), Eheieh (aleph-heh-yod-heh) has a value of 21. Repeated, then, we have a total of 42. The value of the letters M and B is also 42 (mem-beth). This is a highly significant number. In Egyptian mythology, the dead had to face 42 judges."
an extract from Leon Zeldis paper Esoterism and Freemasonry.
Back to Emotions and the Esoteric - He goes on to say "Vibration, polarity and rhythm are three concepts that are closely related.... the checkerboard floor represent these. .
...The polarity of the universe is expressed in the innumerable antinomy's offered by the sensible world: light and darkness, heat and cold, sound and silence, high and and low. However, if we examine them closely, we realize that they are actually one single quality that moved between two extremes. Nobody knows when cold becomes hot, or when love turns into hate. Where is the dividing line between small and large?.."
We are back to the Pillars again - and pondering how much to the right or left of the line between them we should place the emotions.
(Could an alternate name for the Pillars be
I AM ............................. i am)
Maat
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Post by hollandr on Aug 25, 2005 1:19:45 GMT
Maat
There is another take on "I am that I am".
A valid translation might be "I am who I am"
In other words: Mind your own business.
And (my scholarship being weak) do we not have the god appearing to Abraham declaring "I am the god of your fathers". Demonstrating that Abraham had no name for the god of his fathers and that perhaps they too were ignorant of the god's name.
This of course is in a long magical tradition that if you know the true name of an entity you have some power over it - even if only to lodge a complaint against the god in the council of the gods.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Aug 25, 2005 2:14:17 GMT
"I am that I am". A valid translation might be "I am who I am" In other words: Mind your own business. - Yes Sir - whatever you say Sir I won't argue with that one! This interpretation, that interpretation ... All this just goes to show - it's not what's in your head that counts - it's what is in your heart..... (this was the thought that a near death experiencer brought back from 'the Lord') Cheers Maat
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Aug 25, 2005 14:11:41 GMT
Like I always say, 95 % of the time, whenever anything goes wrong in human affairs, it eventually boils down to bad Bible scholarship.
The voice from the burning bush declares itself to be Eheyeh Asher Eheyeh, that is I am that I am, an idiomatic Hebrew expression signifying I become.
I am what I am, indeed! Moses is hailed from the burning bush by Gloria Gaynor!? I think not. Obviously Tina Turner was busy that day, otherwise it would've been singing Disco Inferno, or maybe Burning Bush City Limits!
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