staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 18, 2005 9:09:14 GMT
To allow the Mason thread in General to continue without too much diversifying my question for review and your thoughts is ;
DOES A MAN NEED TO BE INITIATED
There are several people here who have not been initiated and openly practice all the Virtues of Freemasonry that we are taught.
Wea ll know that Workings in the Temple and ceremonies are quite special and magical in themselves and the unitiated would certainly miss this aspect.
Therefore is Initiation of some form neccessary to carry on further development of your inner self.?
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Post by hollandr on Sept 18, 2005 9:35:48 GMT
Staffs
It is a good question and here is an approximate answer until time and circumstance allow me to improve it
There are 3 forms of initiation relevant to us
- formal ritual that is purely play acting - common enough in mediocre lodges and some so-called mystical or esoteric organisations
- a process of acceptance by a group entity or higher being of the candidate into a specific energy field - this is a higher counterpart to the tradition of a tradesman taking on an apprentice. This acceptance process may be at a human, trans-human or cosmic level and may be ritual based - but not necessarily, rather like the tradition of a GM making a Mason on sight
- the most fundamental initiatory process (for humans) is based on learning control of the energy frequencies that make up our various personal and transpersonal bodies - physical, emotional, mental, intuitional, will, etc. This is represented on the EA TB by Jacob's ladder. If various preconditions are met, including ratios of subplane substance in various bodies and demonstrated control of those bodies, then the candidate may be blessed with a burst of energy via The One Initiator and assisted with a re-patterning of subtle bodies so that he or she may be more useful. The burst of energy serves to stabilise the new initiate at higher levels.
The geometry of the initiatory process is preserved in some Masonic rituals
But the initiate is essentially self-made. Even in the absence of the application of the rod of initiation (see Black Rod in the English parliament) the initiate has self-established the ability to function at higher levels.
Now the form of initiation in Masonry is often the first and sometimes the second type. Very rarely the third type will occur during the formal ritual in a Masonic lodge. I have only seen it twice as I recall.
So, generally, if the seeker can find a spiritually strong Masonic lodge, then there may well be benefit in a lodge ritual initiation, particularly if the candidate already has an active inner sponsor. This is normal for those strongly treading the spiritual path.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 18, 2005 11:26:05 GMT
It also has to be said that there are some men who have been Initiated, Passed and Raised, some holding High Offices in their Province but who pay only lip service to "all the Virtues of Freemasonry that we are taught".
I consider Stewart Edwards to be a Freemason although he has not been Initiated into any lodge I am permitted to attend and I could not take him to one of mine.
It's a bit like "Baptism by Desire" that some people are said to have if they wish to become Christians but are prevented in their country or by their culture from doing so.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 18, 2005 12:04:33 GMT
I consider Stewart Edwards to be a Freemason although he has not been Initiated into any lodge I am permitted to attend and I could not take him to one of mine. . Steve, i wholeheartedly agree with you on that remark and Stewart has helped many people with their own personal and internal development including myself by making me think very hard and openly about certain subjects and their meanings. Imagine the joy Stewart would get from being part of and witnessing actual live working ceremonies.? Some are initiated and call themselves Freemasons which they are and rightly so but one sees so many people who do not continue growing and look no further than being a master of the lodge because they are told that that is the done thing. If i had never found these forums and interacted on a personal level with many of the people who frequent such i may have become one of these people wandering around like a lost spirit looking for something more from FM .It would be very frustrating knowing there is more but not being able to find it .I will always remember "Seek and ye shall find" but surely one must know it is there in the first place to be found. Some people though enjoy FM as they perceive it to be and that is fine but if they could only realise that they are missing so much more. I realise and understand through research that there is far more than i will ever possibly achieve or know in my lifetime on this earth which is limited also by my that which my personal circumstances in life may fairly warrant but maybe it is a small step to enable and prepare me to be a step further up the ladder or on a different plane for what comes and is to follow when this earth life finishes for me. ?
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Post by a on Sept 18, 2005 12:39:07 GMT
I consider Stewart Edwards to be a Freemason although he has not been Initiated into any lodge I am permitted to attend and I could not take him to one of mine. . Taylorsman, thank you. As you know I am called brother by a fair range of Freemasons, from around the world. And it is very touching. As you know even a Grand Secretary of an UGLE-amity fraternity has called me brother. And when I attend Lodge functions it is not unknown for me to be introduced and greeted as brother. And this has touched my heart. However for clarity, as of todays date I have not petitioned, joined, or been initiated into any Lodge or fraternity on this Earth at this time. (With the exception of the UGLE lodge that I petitioned a couple of years back and was rejected by) Though I would suggest that I have undergone some solar initiations, and I would not be surprised to find that I have been a Freemason in previous incarnations. This all said I do realise that I am possibly one of the most unpopular people in the Masonic world, for so many people appear to fear me. Which is rather silly. Staffs, thank you. As I said to Taylorman over a pint a year or so ago, that is all that I have been trying to do is to get Freemasons thinking. As you can probably imagine this has been said to me a few times. It will happen, though as some know here, for myself, I have been looking for a very specific ceremony, or more specifically one than has a specific certain object as part of it. With regard to being present at the ceremonies of others I would hope that my own energies would add something valuable to the proceedings. And when the time is right it will happen. Perhaps this is what UGLE needs to do Staffs. Perhaps it needs to find a way to make it plainly clear to all of its members that "something more" is within the very grasp of all of its members. And it is, I would suggest that it is just a little obscured just now. Let the initiations initiate and this will cease to be a problem. Indeed. But the answers lie within you. If you open your heart widely enough, do the very painful internal work, learn to see, to recognise, to believe, to feel, you will find that you can take great strides. And then the esoteric will be exoteric. You will, in time, feel the inner beauty not only of Freemasonry, but of nature, the divine, everything. It really is enlightening. But you need to experience what you need to experience, which is why this process can take many lifetimes. But Staffs, you as an individual can take huge strides in this lifetime, if you want to. Indeed everyone can. It is rather simple, though very difficult, which is why vehicles like Freemasonry exist, to help you take these steps. If you want to.
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Post by corab on Sept 24, 2005 21:31:14 GMT
DOES A MAN NEED TO BE INITIATED ... Therefore is Initiation of some form neccessary to carry on further development of your inner self.? Interesting that you should ask that. It was a question that kept my husband and I busy for a good few hours during our brief stay in Roslin. We talked about the fact that over the centuries the method of 'teaching' had probably proven itself, so that could be one reason why you had to join Freemasonry in order to benefit from its knowledge. That didn't sit quite right with me, though; there is more to an initiatory tradition than just that. I ended up with comparing it to a process Wicca (which was created by a Co-Mason) went through. Until it went public in the 70s-80s, it was essentially an initiatory tradition which kept its rituals secret - all was on a need to know basis. Come the 80s a number of initiate authors commited what was then seen as breach of their oaths and published entire rituals. Soon after a wave of self-initiations followed and nowadays the very word "Wicca" casts images of Buffy / Charmed inspired teenage goths into 'womyn power' and the dark arts. Of course, anyone who wishes to do so can by Masonic ritual books and have a stab at it themselves but (a) it wouldn't have the same effect and (b) their self-initiation wouldn't be recognised and they would not be able to participate in the Lodge. Remember the Wicca scenario and imagine what would happen if the Masonic powers that be decided to recognise such self-initiations. Traditions and rituals would be diluted and transmuted beyond recognition faster than you can repeat your oath (well, maybe that's an exaggeration, but you get the picture). The whole system would dissolve from the inside out, and within the span of only a few years, Grand Lodge's function would be pointless, because there wouldn't be any control over what is practised in Lodge. Initiation is a beautiful experience which should enrich a person's life. That will always be its prime purpose - to give someone a foundation to build upon. But there is a control function to it, as well - it helps keep the system 'pure' and helps maintain its structures and procedures. A well-working system is worth maintaining, and any proposed changes should be well considered before implementing them. You wouldn't be able to do that if you opened up shop and let people in without creating that foundation. Recognise self-initiation and the system goes to pot, because so many people have so many different experiences and interpretations and they will go off and spread their word, giving rise to new sub-traditions that bear little or no resemblance to their origin. None of the above, however, states that a person must be initiated to further their growth, and I don't believe it is necessary. Life itself is full of initiatory experiences that have the power to bring about growth. Yes, initiation into a tradition is a beautiful and deeply moving experience that will turn your life upside down, but it is not the only way to grow. The requirement of initiation, I think, is therefore more about maintaining the system and passing on knowledge in a structured way than about bringing about the sought after growth - although initiation does help to do just that. Cora
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Post by Yoki on Sept 25, 2005 2:27:10 GMT
Couldn't have said I better my self Cora, if life is a school then the examinations are formal and informal and the qualification are both apparent and hidden .I think its also a bit like the saying if the pupil is ready the teacher appears. But in the case of imitation if the pupil has passed the experience presents its self. To the best of my knowledge imitation both physical and astral can as Russel said altar frequencies, but this can also happen with out initiation Personally I walked a lone path for years and the outstanding experience of my life came out of the blue with the initiator involved disappearing just as quickly.
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Post by hollandr on Sept 25, 2005 5:22:16 GMT
Brethren
As the human race progresses, the first real initiation - based on control of the physical desires - will become commonplace. As that happens, human institutions will grow up around the triggering and celebrating of that first initiation.
At present Masonry and the charismatic christian churches both conduct rituals that may well evolve into such an institution - ours is the EA ritual and theirs is declaring oneself for Christ.
Over the next decades we can expect many many millions of humans to reach that first real initiation - at which point they know that life has a meaning - belief is outgrown.
Then they will discover energies and spirits and rituals. The human race needs institutions to care for the huge numbers who will need guidance as they launch into the inner worlds.
Both Masonry and the traditional christian churches are having significant trouble preparing for this. Alternative and New Age organisations so far have been pretty mediocre in an organisational sense - certainly not able to deal with the numbers soon to come to hand.
Is Masonry able to step up to meet the challenge?
Cheers
Russell
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 25, 2005 7:06:17 GMT
"Alternative and New Age organisations so far have been pretty mediocre in an organisational sense - certainly not able to deal with the numbers soon to come to hand.
Is Masonry able to step up to meet the challenge?"
Bro Russell, it would be a lovely idea if the enthusiasm and spirituality of the New Age Organisations could be melded with the Organisational skills and experience of Regular Freemasonry but I don't see this happening, at least not in the remainder of my lifetime.
Whilst there are those such as myself, and others who post here, who have a strong Esoteric and Spiritual dimension and who find this in our Freemasonry, (mostly in my case in the Higher Degrees rather than in Craft) , there are also those who are implaccibly opposed to such ideas, whether they merely parrot the "Party Line" that "Freemasonry is not a Religion nor a Substitute for a Religion" and " We do not discuss Religion in Open Lodge", or take a more hostile stance against those of us who have an Esoteric and Spritual inclination. Such deep concepts do not lie well with the Social Clubbers and Badge Collectors.
With the mainstream Churches there are those who are members on a superficial basis only and who may well mouth the prayers and sign the hymns and exchange the Sign of Peace during a service but who don't mean a word of it and hang up their religion with their coats when they come home from Church and do not practice what has been preached for the rest of their week. In like manner there are those who call themselves Freemasons and who are considered as such by others, but are "Aprons without Masons" as another poster has put it. To many of them the Ritual etc is no more than what Stewart Edwards has referred to as "A bit of mumbo jumbo before the REAL work in the Bar or at the Festive Board"
To be honest whilst there are the Higher Degrees for those of us who do find the Spiritual and Esoteric in the Higher Degrees and find much happiness and satisfaction thereby , I do not consider that Regular Freemasonry is the best vehicle for what you, Bro Russell, seek to achieve and would think that Co-Masonry( and some of the European Alternative GLs) with Esoteric and Mystical aspects from Stage One, is a more suitable conduit.
In conclusion I am reminded by all this discussion of the quote attributed to Queen Elizabeth I when as Princess Elizabeth she was questioned by the Roman Catholic Bishop Bonner as to what she beleived to be the basis of Holy Communion. (Elizabeth was a Protestant whilst this was when her RC sister "Bloody" Mary Tudor was on the Throne). Elizabeth replied, "Christ was the word who spake it, he took the bread and break it, and that which he did make it, I in my heart partake it". Could such an answer be adapted to the original question?
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 25, 2005 7:12:59 GMT
Now as we can discuss religion philosophically without questioning anothers belief .....may i ask if it is thought that Baptism or being Christened is a form of Initiation in itself.
Personally i have been neither baptised or christened.
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phil
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Post by phil on Sept 25, 2005 8:27:30 GMT
Now as we can discuss religion philosophically without questioning anothers belief .....may i ask if it is thought that Baptism or being Christened is a form of Initiation in itself. Personally i have been neither baptised or christened. I have also not ben baptised but had a Barmitva instead, at the age of 13. But, as in an attempt to react to your last question Lee, let's get back to basics. What is an initiation? If you were to consider it to be a ceremony in which a bond is created and an emotional or (dare I say) a spiritual effect takes place on the intiate himself/herself, then any ceremony (ritual) that is new to the initiate may be considered an initiation. To return to the first question and the various reactions that I have just read, may I offer you the following personal thoughts on the subject: 1/ Being a Mason does not guarantee that the individual is a worthy as we would hope. All (masculine) Masons are just men and some of them only just. 2/ People join Masonry for so many reasons: Theatrics, companionship, an excuse to avoid the wife and kids, a good meal and drink, a place for peace, a place to gossip, a place to show off, busines networking, a place to meditate, a thirst for more knowledge, a support for their religion, an esoteric experience, etc, etc. 3/ Anybody can be just, true, faithfull to their G-d, helpful to their neighbours, kind to those that need help, loving and suportive, all without being a Mason, a Christian, a Moslim or a Jew. The cup of human kindness is limited to noone. 4/ I often come accross people who, in my opinion, are more Freemasons in character and behaviour those some of those that I know have been initiated. My wife does not even like Freemasonry (because she hears little else) and yet she is that sort of person. Here in Holland we often refer to individuals as Masons without aprons. Those that live up to the moral, social and religious beliefs without ever being initiated. S&FG Phil
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 25, 2005 8:27:36 GMT
Possibly Lee, but to me it is vitiated by the practice of Infant Baptism. Personally, although I am NOT a "Baptist" I prefer that a person be Christened when they are old enough to comprehend what is involved and can make an informed decision of their own Free Will and Accord. To some extent the Sacrament of Confirmation as practiced by Anglicans such as myself and by Roman Catholics redresses this error as one is in one's teens typically 13 or 14 when this is perfomed, (cross reference to Jewish Bar Mitzvah), but I would still give more validity to Baptism of a knowing believer.
Yes, as it is a Rite of Introduction , Baptism/Christening could be considered as an Initiation.
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Post by a on Sept 25, 2005 8:34:11 GMT
whilst there are the Higher Degrees for those of us who do find the Spiritual and Esoteric in the Higher Degrees and find much happiness and satisfaction thereby , I do not consider that Regular Freemasonry is the best vehicle for what you, Bro Russell, seek to achieve and would think that Co-Masonry( and some of the European Alternative GLs) with Esoteric and Mystical aspects from Stage One, is a more suitable conduit. You may find that these other GLs have (on the whole) been getting their act together for some time now, and which is why some are I understand already reaping the rewards of their good work. As what you call regular Freemasonry stagnates and declines, some of these other GLs (who also consider themselves to be regular), are striding forward. Hence the gap appears to be widening (or closing depending on your perspective) between UGLE-amity and everyone else. It will not I suspect be long before UGLE-amity finds itself in the real backwaters, unless it finds its way in the twentyfirst century very soon. This may seem impossible from an UGLE centric average member outlook, but it does appear to be happening from a global perspective. I just hope that the UGLE Pro GM can motivate his members to take positive steps before it is to late, and UGLE does finally become the social club with some mumbo jumbo that many of its members appear to want of it. From the global perspective it is quite interesting to watch as the landscape of Freemasonry changes. I do still think that if the UGLE Pro GM can get things moving soon, in the next few months, it is quite feasible that UGLE could rise again within the next few years like a pheonix. But I accept that such radical change is unlikely, given that at least some powers that be have been recommending it to their past masters for many years, to no apparent avail. Anyhow my point is this Taylorsman, you are probably right as the other GLs are moving forward in our world, but it would be nice to see UGLE-amity lead as oppose to be sidelined, in the genral scheme of things. But to see this you may have to view Freemasonry out of the UGLE box and look at it more globally. This is one occassion where I wish that I was wrong, for GLoS is close to my heart, and I can see so much potential in UGLE, and I am aware that GLoI is moving forward. And Taylorsman you just need to look around you at the number of independent, French based, comasonic etc Lodges that currently operate in England. The Regular Grand Lodge of England being perhaps the newest example. Experienced English Freemasons don't set up and support such lodges for no reason. Taking RGLE as an example, while I have not joined it, I do attend their agapes, and I can tell you that they are fun, informative, educational, interesting, and worthwhile. It is just a pity that its members felt it necessary to split away from UGLE. But it has, and from meeting new initiates and potential candidates, it does appear to be offering something valuable. Perhaps you should attend an Agape yourself Taylorsman!! I suspect that you would enjoy some of the topics of conversation. Anyhow the important thing is that initiation actually initiates. If this test is failed then there can only be weak foundations for subsequent work. And as any builder will tell you a building erected on weak foundations has problems ahead.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Sept 25, 2005 8:34:16 GMT
Yes, initiation is required to join Freemasonry and to practice collective rites, where from the Eggregore spreads.
It's however understood that the spiritual journey can be taken only if the initiate is so willing. Freemasonry gives men the gear, it's up to them to use it.
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Post by hollandr on Sept 25, 2005 9:45:52 GMT
..may i ask if it is thought that Baptism or being Christened is a form of Initiation in itself. Staffs The story of the baptism of Jesus is considered by some to be a demonstration of the first initiation. As he was an adult at the time he was much more likely to have controlled physical desires than a baby. Hence baptism as currently practised is not normally likely to trigger the corresponding real initiation. The ceremony I was considering is in charismatic churches where it is common to call for people who are fairly new to charismatic christianity to declare themselves for Christ. This would typically involve coming down the front of the hall, making the declaration and being prayed for and over. Sometimes a real first initiation can occur at this point but it is still fairly rare. Typically the person declaring themselves will be emoting strongly and will not have conquered the final physical desire - the desire for power. Cheers Russell
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Post by a on Sept 25, 2005 10:53:06 GMT
Typically the person declaring themselves will be emoting strongly and will not have conquered the final physical desire - the desire for power. The trouble with power is that it has big downsides. The phrase "Power corrupts" is well known. Power can inflate ones ego, and lead to unnecessary fracturisation in organisations as power groups form. I would imagine that any good person who accepts a position of power would have a significant dilema on their hands. On the one hand, you have the ability to enjoy and experience aspects of life that are new to you, and which could if properly incorporated into ones life, lead to further personal growth. On the other hand however, you have to be strong enough to maintain mastery and not let your own balance be disupted, resulting in corruption etc. For at the end of the day, with power comes responsibility. responsibility to oneself to continue moving forward, and responsibility to those who follow for your leadership to be sound to help them grow in balanced fashion.
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Post by vadro on Sept 25, 2005 20:27:07 GMT
This is a quite interesting topic, and a lot has been written and discussed about it. I have read somewhere that not all kind of wood is good for building, and not all kind of rocks are good to make good stones. First of all, why we want to be initiated? This is a rather important question, why do we want to be part of a Fraternity? To wish something, it means that we feel we are lacking of something, in our contest, we may affirm that a profane is aware to be in the dark, thus he wishes to seek the Light. The etymology of the word “to initiate” has a Latin route, which originally meant “to be initiated to a religious mystery”, then its use has been generalized during the centuries. This verb in Latin also meant “going toward” (initium, initus, in-ire), which means that after being initiated, we are starting a journey, from a departure we are going towards a point. So the former definition is related to a religious world, where the initiated was admitted to a traditional ceremony, and was taught sacred knowledge. The latter explanation obviously represents a voyage, the voyage that the Initiated starts towards the Light who represents wisdom, knowledge and understanding. There are many examples of initiation, I am thinking of the primitive communities who had initiatory ceremony for the boy who turned into man and therefore warrior, which was a starting point of the journey as a full element of the society. Our Fraternity is full of allegory, as we can see also in our degrees, namely Entered Apprentice, Fellow of the Craft and finally Master Masons. The Master teaches the young apprentice the “secrets” of the art, and then he eventually became a Fellow Craft, before he reaches the ability to Master his work. How can an Apprentice learn the art if he is not initiated into the Craft and then taught by the Masters of his Fraternity?
S&F
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Post by maat on Sept 25, 2005 23:18:01 GMT
I think all initiations occur on a subtle level. Using a computer analogy - when a certain stage of growth/achievement is attained a new part of our programme is automatically initiated ... a new pattern of operation activated, a new set of goals/challenges set before us, goals which we innately perceive and respond to with the elevated consciousness that comes with reaching the previous goal. (Evolution).
From that stand point - an outward form of initiation is not necessary - nor should it be.
Initiatory systems, such as Freemasonry, however, can be useful and have a real effect upon the candidate - mainly because the innate perceptions mentioned above can be seen to bring the candidate to the system. Like attracts like. There is a real channeling of energy.
So IMO Masonry demonstrates the basic truth or law of evolution and it also offers an acceleration of the benefits to those that are 'ready'.
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 26, 2005 3:50:04 GMT
Power is neither good nor ill, it is its use which can be subjectively assessed. Take for example Gunpowder. Used by the ancients in the Far East for firecrackers and other amusements, used in the West for far more destructive purposes and as a means to exert power over those races and nations not in possession of such weaponry. In the more modern era Nuclear Power can be either a great boon to mankind in a plentiful supply of clean electricity or a terrible danger as the H Bomb.
Take money. Many of us would love to win the big prize of £1m plus in the National Lottery, I certainly would! Freed from the need to work 37.5 hours a week Monday-Friday I could enjoy life and broaden my experiences, visit other countries etc. However, would such resources also empower my dark side? The wish to settle old scores, pay back those who had slighted me in the past? There is a downside to such power as well.
It has been said that many of us really would like a Dictatorship as long as we agreed with its policies and even more so if we coud be part of the regime. Thus the appeal of the Nazis in Germany and the Fascists in Italy to many ordinary and decent Germans and Italians at the time and the idea of the "Benevolent Dicatorship" still has appeal for many when compared to the wishy-washy and vapid Democracies of today, as long as one is in receipt of that Regime's Benevolent side and are not one of its victims. Between 1933 and 1939 many ordinary Germans benefited in the material sense from Adolf Hitler, but not much fun if you were a Jew!
So to my mind Power per se is neither good nor evil, it is its application which is to be judged.
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Post by hollandr on Sept 26, 2005 3:53:32 GMT
Brethren
There seems a bit of interest in my comment that the desire for power is the highest of the physical desires.
The desire for money and the desire for beautiful possessions are brought under control at earlier stages
But still the attraction of these things may remain with us - but within due bounds
Cheers
Russell
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