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Post by mattjtayl on Apr 24, 2008 3:51:54 GMT
My fiancee that I have been engaged to for the last 6 months has been steadfast opposed to the masons and will not budge on her beliefs. She often tells me that if I had to make a choice between her and the masons she knows I would choose my brothers over her. Well that is true. If I absolutely had to I would choose the masons over her. Its my life, my belief system, and she has to respect that.
Despite telling her not ot believe the garbage she reads online and in books, she doesn't put trust in what I say and believes these books. She says these authors have been studying masonry for years and know the "one world government conspirarcy" that is taking place with the masons.
She then gets mad at me when I laugh at her and tell her not to believe that garbage and its very obvious those authors don't know anything what they are talking about by just reading what they write. She thinks I am calling her stupid; I am not I am calling the authors stupid. I tell her these authors are just out their to prey on the weak minded and easily gullible. She then gets offensive and says "so I am gullible and weak minded and stupid, is that what your are calling me?"
She won't give me any credit because I haven't been a mason for very long and therefore haven't been exposed to the "upper echelon of elites who know the true meaning of masonry". I just laugh at her and ask her why she can even believe such ridiculous stupidity.
My girlfriend comes from a very religous background and studies the bible intensly and thats what I really like about her. That is also what I like so much about many of my fellow brothers, many of them can quote scriptures from memory and have been studying the bible for years. They always tell me it is my duty as a mason to read the bible and know it inside out.
So I try to explain to her many masons are very religous just like her and it doesn't conflict with my faith, but just makes it that much more stronger.
Regretfully if worse comes to worse I will either 1) Marry her with her still being opposed to masonry or 2) call off the wedding. She says she will still marry me even if I still stay active. I am not sure though if I want to marry her though if she won't support me and trust my word that what I do with the masons is just and good.
Help brothers? How should I handle this?
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Post by hollandr on Apr 24, 2008 4:34:32 GMT
Matt
You are in a difficult situation. Here are some observations that may or may not be useful.
- Masonry is quite clear that meeting your obligations to the brethren is subject to "if the same be not to the detriment of yourself and family". Thus the family comes first. There are both social and spiritual reasons for this.
- "from a very religious background and studies the bible intensely" this is a significant issue. Eventually the couple must agree to support and value each other's spirituality. The absence of this is a great hurdle to happy and productive partnership. I have seen (and experienced) couples that agree on their spirituality and then after some years one turns away on a spiritual level - after another decade the relationship is gone
- "upper echelon of elites who know the true meaning of masonry" This is difficult to deal with on a logical level. I wonder if there are senior brethren she could meet whose essential goodness is plain to see. (Choose carefully)
- Her concern with conspiracies is not silly - conspiracies have been the life blood of politics over the millennia. The difficulty is where many organisations are jumbled together without discrimination. Often churches have a similar view - our church is right and we don't know about other churches so to be safe will assume they are all wrong.
- "many of them can quote scriptures from memory" It is certainly a useful attribute from a number of levels. Eventually however spirituality does not come from a book but through the heart that is open to the Source of All. Personally I have never seen an argument settled by quotations from scripture.
- "She says she will still marry me even if I still stay active. " That is definitely encouraging. I hope however that there is no great urgency. Both of you may have some further unfoldment in discovering the spark of Divinity within yourself and each other
Cheers
Russell
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 24, 2008 6:24:59 GMT
matt:
First rule of Freemasonry, - Family first.
Plus what every Wife to be wants to hear is She is the most important thing in your Life.
I have to be honest with you matt if I told my wife she was "gullible and weak minded and stupid" I would be nursing a broken head within minutes, so I refrain from any comment that would even come close.
If its any help I have been a Mason for quite a while now and I am no where near any upper anything. Just a footsoldier.
Being able to quote from the Bible is not any great shakes, just need a good memory. Understanding it is the trick. Just the same with Freemasonry, I can introduce you to hundreds of worthy Masons who recite the ritual word perfect. I am doubtful that they understand the meaning and lessons involved.
Why not ask her to come here and see what Masons do and say , out in the open. You say she still wants to Marry even if she can not get you to leave. So she is reasonable and fair minded so far. I would ask her to listen to both sides and not just the anti Masonic rhetoric, then make her mind up.
All I can tell her is as an OLD Mason I have a loving Wife, 4 grown up Children, 11 Granddkids, hundreds of Friends. They all take part in the Masonic social life. None have horns and tails. although I am not sure about Joe who is 3 as I looked after him ALL day yesterday. [still recovering]
So I have a lesson for you both matt, get yourself to where you place God first, your Family next, then Freemasonry. If you get the order wrong, your heading for problems.
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Post by leonardo on Apr 24, 2008 7:19:53 GMT
All great advice so far. Matt, of course, if you were both Freemasons she would then know for certain her fears are unfounded. I am not being flippant, I am deadly serious! My wife and I were initiated together on the same day and if nothing else this has ensured total understanding in absolutely everything and anything to do with Masonry. Granted we do have the odd row on other things but never in regards to Masonry I realise if she's (your girlfriend) so dead against Freemasonry then that scenario isn't likely to happen anytime soon. But if she were to even speak to some lady Masons her attitude might change and she might see that Masonry, although not for her, is after all pretty OK and nothing to get worked up about.
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Post by penfold on Apr 24, 2008 9:08:31 GMT
Firstly I would stop dating the girls you mention in another thread....
Got to be honest matt your posts conflict each other and I am not sure you are on the level.
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Post by lauderdale on Apr 24, 2008 10:30:09 GMT
If this relationship was a horse, I'd say shoot it!
I feel that this is doomed to failure. If your fiancée is so anti Freemasonry then she will always resent your attending Lodge etc and this will cause your marriage to be built on poor foundations and ultimately founder. If you quit Freemasonry for her you will always resent this and be unhappy.
I honestly feel she is the wrong person for you and that it is virtually impossible to de-program those who are anti-Masonic on religious grounds.
Sorry I can give no words of comfort but the very least one can realistically work with is a partner who is indifferent to the interests of their spouse. Opposition and antagonism, even if veiled, will always breed resentment and ultimately poison the relationship. This is the same if the contentious matter is a Football Team, Political Party, Religion or in this case Freemasonry.
It is easy for me to say perhaps, but if such an irreconcilable difference exists now when you are only Engaged I can see little hope of a Happy Marriage and feel you would be better to end the relationship and hopefully find someone else who is at least indifferent and at best supprtive to your being "On the Square"
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Post by hollandr on Apr 24, 2008 11:14:07 GMT
It seems to me that human relationships are very complex and extend over many lives. The fact that the woman says she is prepared to marry him despite "I would choose my brothers over her" tells me that there is more to the relationship than meets the eye
I suggest allowing some time for outworking of the relationship so that there is not a rending of hearts and lifelong sorrow.
Often relationships with strong spiritual differences have their roots back in days of religious intolerance. And frequently in those situations there were dependencies particularly of women being protected and supported by men. Such dependencies may take some lifetimes to transform into equality and friendship.
So, in my view rushing in or rushing away is more likely to create problems rather than solve them.
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 24, 2008 11:14:08 GMT
Firstly I would stop dating the girls you mention in another thread.... Got to be honest matt your posts conflict each other and I am not sure you are on the level. That may be the case, but the question and the answers remain valid.
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Post by mattjtayl on Apr 24, 2008 11:55:34 GMT
Firstly I would stop dating the girls you mention in another thread.... Got to be honest matt your posts conflict each other and I am not sure you are on the level. Well she cheated on me first. We both know the relationship isn't working so we both have been trying to look for a better match. I know she has dated other men and she knows I have dated other women. But despite that I still run back to her because I love her better than the girls I have tried to date and she runs back to me because I think I am better than the guys she dated. .
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Post by leonardo on Apr 24, 2008 12:07:50 GMT
Firstly I would stop dating the girls you mention in another thread.... Got to be honest matt your posts conflict each other and I am not sure you are on the level. Well she cheated on me first. We both know the relationship isn't working so we both have been trying to look for a better match. I know she has dated other men and she knows I have dated other women. But despite that I still run back to her because I love her better than the girls I have tried to date and she runs back to me because I think I am better than the guys she dated. . If things are that bad, then let it go. Why should you both be miserable. Two miserable people don't add up to happiness.
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Post by penfold on Apr 24, 2008 12:50:17 GMT
Indeed
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Post by derekj on Apr 24, 2008 19:24:35 GMT
There are many women in the world, many waiting for a good man to love them. There is only one Freemasonry!
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Post by leonardo on Apr 24, 2008 19:54:35 GMT
Let's not forget that although Masonry is a way of life, and a pretty good one at that, if I may say so, but it isn't life. IMO.
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Apr 24, 2008 20:07:56 GMT
Matt, if you two are dating other people, how can you still be engaged? Just based on what I'm reading here, I'd say you two have far greater issues than whether she's all cool with the Craft.This particular issue, I think, is moot until you get the other issues worked out. As to the topic in general . . . when I was still looking into the Craft, before my initiation, my BF was one of a very, very few who were against me joining. He based this on a mistaken notion - which I could not at all convince him he was mistaken about - that I was, somehow, by joining, forcing my way into a Male-Only area. When it became clear that I could not convince him he was mistaken, I simply informed him this is my path, I will walk it and if he doesn't like it . . . oh well. After my initiation, and as time passed, he came to realize he was mistaken, though he never has admitted this. In fact, we pretend he has supported me all along. For he does fully support me now (he even buys me cool books ;D ). And, sometimes, he even asks questions, though he says he's not interested.
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Post by leonardo on Apr 24, 2008 21:34:45 GMT
Matt, if you two are dating other people, how can you still be engaged? Just based on what I'm reading here, I'd say you two have far greater issues than whether she's all cool with the Craft.This particular issue, I think, is moot until you get the other issues worked out. Excellent point. This is not his fault as it is/was generally misconstrued that Freemasonry is Male only, but the good news is people are becoming more and more aware that women too are Masons. I have personally had the pleasure if informing many of the existence of Lady Masons. Sometimes they don't believe me at first but when they've had a chance to visit certain websites their scepticism is no more Would you really have chosen Freemasonry over the BF? You must be very committed. Personally if it was my wife or the Craft she would win hands down. Fortunately though this was never an issue for either of us. That is wonderful. I feel in time he will start knocking on that door
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Apr 25, 2008 4:09:05 GMT
Would you really have chosen Freemasonry over the BF? Yes Or I should be I'm glad this worked out for both of you. For my part, I have very low tolerance for this kind of control. I don't step on his path, I expect him not to step on mine. It has been the only area of conflict between us so, clearly, it was going to work out. But, then, he never, ever said, "It's me or the Craft". Had he said that, I would have bid him farewell. And would have been heartbroken about it. But I would have done it. He says that aint' gonna happen. And it's cool with me if it doesn't. I call him "my beloved Profane", which he finds oddly exciting As to whether he ever will change his mind . . . who can say? But it ain't what he thought.
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Post by leonardo on Apr 25, 2008 6:33:27 GMT
I imagine if you were married and had children, and then faced with such a choice, you may not be as willing to immediately dismiss your partner.
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Post by 2 BOWL CAIN on Apr 25, 2008 12:11:26 GMT
I would have a problem with any human "telling" me what to do. 1st strike. Anyone that closed minded would not be in my circle. Male or female. 2nd strike. Anytime a female I am involved with happens to break the trust of Fidelity, it is forever over. 3rd strike. Game over. I was born into this world attached to only my mother, only the mother of my children will get any special treatment. Prior to that, mutual respect is all I ask and give a Girlfriend/fiance. My Brother, it seems you may still be young in life, give yourself time to grow without another human influencing your decision making process. Find yourself first, see what you may be lacking, and find the complement in the opposite sex that enhances you, not convenient in the face of lonliness and security. Find thyself first. Then look to add to it. IMHO
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Post by windtimber on Apr 26, 2008 19:05:36 GMT
Firstly I would stop dating the girls you mention in another thread.... Got to be honest matt your posts conflict each other and I am not sure you are on the level. Well she cheated on me first. We both know the relationship isn't working so we both have been trying to look for a better match. I know she has dated other men and she knows I have dated other women. But despite that I still run back to her because I love her better than the girls I have tried to date and she runs back to me because I think I am better than the guys she dated. . YIKES! You better both dump each other, don't look back, and start over fresh with somebody new. This ain't healthy and it isn't going to get better. That's based on (1) well over a quarter century of handling divorces and other domestic relations disputes in court and (2) just under 30 years marriage to the same lovely lady.
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Post by droche on Apr 26, 2008 21:38:24 GMT
I too will just address the topic in general. I have found over the years that it is impossible in all but a very few cases to convince someone with anti-Masonic beliefs that they are misinformed. If, as was stated, one would choose Masons over a mate with anti-Masonic beliefs, I would go no further and carry out my choice. Of course, the reverse is also true- if the mate is more important, choose the mate. It would be fruitless 99% of the time to try to reconcile the two. This of course applies only when the mate delivers the ultimatum "me or the Masons."
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