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Post by leonardo on Nov 24, 2008 16:42:52 GMT
...If however you believe that Life is meaningless and are satisfied with that belief then I doubt that Masonry will be comfortable for you or with you. A most interesting statement. I'm a UGLE recognized Mason. I believe that Life is meaningless. I also believe that it does not mean anything that Life is meaningless. I also believe that it is I who assign meaning to my Life, which of course may or may not mean anything to anyone else for they too must make this determination for themselves. In effect, having Life only gives one an opportunity to assign meaning to it, or not. Even though this meaning is subjectively assigned, it does not change the objective meaninglessness of that assigned meaningfulness. I'm still comfortable and satisfied with Masonry as it is with me. A most interesting statement though, P Excellent. And reminds me of Leslie Fieger who said that "the meaning of life is to give it meaning and the purpose of life is to give it purpose"
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Post by leonardo on Nov 24, 2008 16:45:10 GMT
............We believe that life is a precious gift .......... A gift from whom? ....who has given that gift? This is why I love forums such as this. Nice one Daralee.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 16:46:14 GMT
Please, allow me to explain my viewpoint.
In religions where a personal God is expressed (and some where they are not I.E. Asartu) the mortal life is secondary. The absolute true life begins after this one ends. That is why dogma is followed and where the idea of "sin" comes from. One must follow those rules and beg for forgiveness in order to recieve "everlasting life."
A mortal life is finite, an afterlife in infinite so I ask, which one is valued more?
To an athiest, we get we only have one life. When the show is over it is done. That being said every second is precious and not to be wasted. Life is for the living.
The question was asked who gave the gift of life? Well, human life is the result of evolution/natural selection. Science has established this. Morality does not spring from a book of spiritual law, it comes from altrustic genes.
I am an atheist simply because I am a rational thinker. I need evidence for extraordinary claims. I do not need to believe anything that was supposed to have happened to someone else who told someone else who told someone else and so on. Accounts that happened to only be written down some 100 years after the original fact. I am only required to belive what I experience or for what their is overwhelming factual evidence for.
I do believe in the evolution of species as it is evident.
Now, like I stated before in the USA there are Masonic Orders that do allow atheists.
The Grand Orient of the USA. Greorge Washington Union of Freemasons GOdF USA M.E.A.P.R.M.M.
Le Droit Humain American Federation does allow atheists, as they do in continental Europe. I have no idea why LDH-UK would stray from that. I am not a member of that Order so I cannot say as to why. I think it is a real shame. Perhaps in the UK, Freemasonry for atheists may not exist?
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 24, 2008 17:03:21 GMT
Violette Szabo & the film Carve Her Name With Pride (1958) is about the poem that in the film Etienne Szabo wrote for Violette and she subsequently used as her code poem.
The life that I have Is all that I have And the life that I have Is yours
The love that I have Of the life that I have Is yours and yours and yours
A sleep I shall have A rest I shall have Yet death will be but a pause
For the peace of my years In the long green grass Will be yours and yours and yours
Carve Her Name With Pride - Virginia Mckenna, Jack Warner, Paul Scofield, Lewis Gilbert - an absolutely magnificent film made for about £3.50. or I should say £3 10s - shillings.
About a young 23 year old girl who was killed by firing squad behind the lines in WW11.
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Post by parisfred on Nov 24, 2008 17:24:21 GMT
Of course you can be atheist agnostic or a freethinker AND a Freemason ! Confusion is often made by Freemasons between the ritual that they locally practice and freemasonry. Those rituals are very different and depend on the culture and the time where they are practised. In most of the English speaking country Freemasonry is very religious in its wording and the ritual used might be difficult to understand or to stand for an atheist or a rationalist. But some of the oldest ritual practised originally written in England but preserved in Netherlands, Spain, Italy, France were about getting men of a goodwill together study science, literature and philosophy. The 1785 ritual, that I have the opportunity to study and use in lodge, makes no reference to any god and oaths are took on a sword: symbol of Honour. Freemasonry is not a believer club, or a syncretised religion… but it sometimes looks like. Some other Masonic paths – rituals - are more about learning to be a freethinker. I am more atheist or agnostic today than when I was initiated. Freemasonry helps me to clarify my opinions on religion, society and human condition. I also met interesting and honest believer in Masonic lodges so I am maybe more tolerant toward them today. But its because a secular freemasonry gave us, believers non-believers, the chance to meet as brothers.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 17:53:49 GMT
Please, allow me to explain my viewpoint. Well, okay, since you insist... A most interesting assertion. Was this rationally obtained or did you hear this from someone else that heard it from yet another in a long chain of assumptions? Only for those whom want to believe this. There are believers in G-d who don't believe this though. Shall I take on faith that your assumptions are true? There are far more things in heaven or hell than are dreamed of in your philosophy. Life, as you may perceive it, is an illusion. I pray that you may perceive a bigger picture some day. What many fail to get is that life, even as you might perceive it, never ends. Once a person comprehends this, they transform. Yup. That was in deed asked indeed. uh huh! I'm glad you agree. Just one question: what Force created these two very fine Life supporting processes? Most interesting. Did you know that the root of the word "science" means "knowledge?" Yes, and once they were indeed discovered, they were carefully written down for others to better understand our makeup. You are an atheist because you have exercised your G-d given gift to choose freely, regardless of the consequence, to be labeled so. Rationality has nothing to do with it. It is irrational to think it does. (Which leads to an obvious question as to why you would claim it does since your rational thinking is now in question, thus nullifying the very basis of your claim.) People of faith freely choose without evidence. That is why they call it faith. Yes, you don't need to, but amazingly enough, you still do in your own special way. That is the nature of being Human. Interesting. Whom created this requirement? Is it a law somewhere written down for all to see? I do believe in the evolution of species as it is evident. Ah! Proof of G-d's work! Do I detect a forked tongue here? P "Well, okay, since you insist..." Please, address me as an adult. I did not post with any sarcasm and I do not need to be addressed in a disrespectful manner. "A most interesting assertion. Was this rationally obtained or did you hear this from someone else that heard it from yet another in a long chain of assumptions?" Again, some sincerity would suit you better. To answer your question I weigh evidence (or lack of) and draw my own conclusions. I think for myself. "Only for those whom want to believe this. There are believers in G-d who don't believe this though." There are those who believe in the Magic JuJu at the bottom of the sea too, that doesn't mean I have to. "Shall I take on faith that your assumptions are true?" NO. Think for yourself. "Life, as you may perceive it, is an illusion. I pray that you may perceive a bigger picture some day." Again, it is on you to provide the proof. If I told you I could fly it would not be on you to prove that I couldn't. The burden of proof is on those who make the claims. Again, I ask that you do not patronize me. Keep that "I'll pray for you" nonsense to yourself. "What many fail to get is that life, even as you might perceive it, never ends. Once a person comprehends this, they transform." Again, the burden of proof is on you. "Just one question: what Force created these two very fine Life supporting processes?" Abiogenesis. "Yes, and once they were indeed discovered, they were carefully written down for others to better understand our makeup." Zero historical evidence to support any biblical claims. Don't you think that people who wandered a desert for a good length of time woul have left behind an artifact? Don't you think the massacre of all of Egypt's sons would have been documented? What about the massacre of the Israeli babies? An honorable mention at least? "You are an atheist because you have exercised your G-d given gift to choose freely, regardless of the consequence, to be labeled so. Rationality has nothing to do with it. It is irrational to think it does. (Which leads to an obvious question as to why you would claim it does since your rational thinking is now in question, thus nullifying the very basis of your claim.)" You know this how? How often have you and I talked about myself and my motivations? Again, this is a common tactic amongst "believers." As I stated before, you are the one making the claims for a magical Creator, the burden of proof is on you. Show me absolute proof and I will be the first to say that I was wrong. "People of faith freely choose without evidence. That is why they call it faith." Your point? People once believed that the world was flat until proven otherwise. "Ah! Proof of G-d's work! Do I detect a forked tongue here?" No, it is not proof of any such thing. Do not put words in my mouth. I also do not appreciate your lack of manners. I understand that e-communication can be impersonal but I assure you that I am a real person and I should be treated with at least a shread of respect.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 18:07:13 GMT
Of course you can be atheist agnostic or a freethinker AND a Freemason ! Confusion is often made by Freemasons between the ritual that they locally practice and freemasonry. Those rituals are very different and depend on the culture and the time where they are practised. In most of the English speaking country Freemasonry is very religious in its wording and the ritual used might be difficult to understand or to stand for an atheist or a rationalist. But some of the oldest ritual practised originally written in England but preserved in Netherlands, Spain, Italy, France were about getting men of a goodwill together study science, literature and philosophy. The 1785 ritual, that I have the opportunity to study and use in lodge, makes no reference to any god and oaths are took on a sword: symbol of Honour. Freemasonry is not a believer club, or a syncretised religion… but it sometimes looks like. Some other Masonic paths – rituals - are more about learning to be a freethinker. I am more atheist or agnostic today than when I was initiated. Freemasonry helps me to clarify my opinions on religion, society and human condition. I also met interesting and honest believer in Masonic lodges so I am maybe more tolerant toward them today. But its because a secular freemasonry gave us, believers non-believers, the chance to meet as brothers. A wonderful and beautiful post made with honesty, maturity and respect. Thank you Brother.
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FireMist
Member
Then rally boys, and hasten on.To meet our Chiefs at the Green Dragon.
Posts: 293
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Post by FireMist on Nov 24, 2008 18:10:03 GMT
..............Le Droit Humain American Federation does allow atheists, as they do in continental Europe. ......... I believe you need to ask them that question again. I think your statement is incorrect at present. In the not to distant past yes, but not now. My understanding is that the LDH here in the US has recanted that.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 18:19:38 GMT
..............Le Droit Humain American Federation does allow atheists, as they do in continental Europe. ......... I believe you need to ask them that question again. I think your statement is incorrect at preasent. In the not to distant past yes, but not now. My understanding is that the LDH here in the US has recanted that. I asked the question directly to the current Grand Commander. That was last summer so if they changed it (I sure hope that they did not) it must have been very recently. I find it both sad and ironic the fear of atheists and agnostics in most Masonic orders. My b/f is a member of a "mainstream" Masonic lodge. They are loosing members at an alarming rate and may soon have to merge with another lodge just to survive. They meet constantly as to why "upper eschelon" Men are not joining the Craft. I can't help but wonder if allowing non-believers whould help with this problem.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 18:51:38 GMT
I live on Vancouver Island, BC. The flag that flies here is red and white with a big leaf in the middle.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 24, 2008 19:12:37 GMT
I do not believe in a magical Creator; that is your magical imagining. I believe in the magic of creation. I have faith that there is something behind the spontaneity of it all. I do not require proof. It is taken on faith. Thank you Brother for stating this far more succinctly than I ever could. It is this understanding that (after many years of doubt) eventually got me to accept believe in the existence of an ultimate Creator. Just what was it that set it all in motion?
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 19:13:08 GMT
Prometheus, Thank you, much better. If anything I said offended you I do apologize. It's not an excuse but I tend to be a bit grumpy on Monday mornings. I mellow out as the day goes along. Thanks, Lux
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 19:21:56 GMT
I do not believe in a magical Creator; that is your magical imagining. I believe in the magic of creation. I have faith that there is something behind the spontaneity of it all. I do not require proof. It is taken on faith. Thank you Brother for stating this far more succinctly than I ever could. It is this understanding that (after many years of doubt) eventually got me to accept believe in the existence of an ultimate Creator. Just what was it that set it all in motion? We don't know, the truth is "believers" don't know 100% for sure either. Science is getting closer and closer to the answer all of the time. The point that is so often overlooked is religious belief is largley cultural. Most Christians and Christians because they where brought up that way. Had they been born in India instead of the West they would probably have become Hindu's. If they where born in the Kalahari, they would believe in the JuJu on top of the mountain. If they where born in ancient Greece they would have believed in Zeus. Everyone is an Atheist when it comes to 99% of what they could believe in. I find it very interesting that we in the west idealize ancient Greece for their art, architecture, science, theater, math and philosophy and yet we shunned their religion and chose that of a much less advanced people. I wonder why this took place?
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FireMist
Member
Then rally boys, and hasten on.To meet our Chiefs at the Green Dragon.
Posts: 293
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Post by FireMist on Nov 24, 2008 19:48:05 GMT
...I asked the question directly to the current Grand Commander. That was last summer .......... I am in the US, you in CA I had asked February/March 2008 Perhaps since they knew I am a Christian, that they told me in a manner that I heard what I wanted to hear. No matter. I have yet to meet an athiest who doesn't ultimately believe that there is something in the universe bigger than themslves. I will not get into a nit picking contest with you. These are not questions for you to answer to me or me to you. They are questons for you to ask and answer yourself within yourself. Good luck in your quest.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 20:06:50 GMT
Firemist, Just to give you some specific background on my LDH conversation. I have a dear friend in Florida who happens to be a fellow atheist. The M.E.A.P.R.M.M. is not for her, so I inquired on her behalf regarding the LDH and their admission policy. The Grand Commander got back to me and he let me know that atheists where welcome. They may have changed this, I am no expert.
In regards to atheism, yes any atheist will tell you that there are plenty of things about the universe we do not understand. Most theists want to believe that only they have those answers and that atheists are miserable and broken people because we do not have with us the "joy" of God nor do we strive for Heaven. This makes it difficult to be an "out of the closet" atheist in today's society. We either get hostility or pity in the form of the infamous "I'll pray for you."
Now, I know of atheists who want to believe but do to sheer lack of evidence they cannot. I am not one of those. The idea of heaven to me is dreadful. The idea of some "creator" spying on my every move and even my thoughts sounds to me like the ultimate Big Brother. Kind of like an etherial Kim Jong IL. NO thanks.
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Post by maximus on Nov 24, 2008 20:25:29 GMT
Prometheus, Thank you, much better. If anything I said offended you I do apologize. It's not an excuse but I tend to be a bit grumpy on Monday mornings. I mellow out as the day goes along. Thanks, Lux Here's a hug to help ya through it! Give one to Brad too, while you're at it. He needs it.
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 24, 2008 22:15:20 GMT
"If anyone lies to gain acceptance into Freemasonry (you don't say what country you live in) then you will be considered 'void of all moral worth' (at least regular Fmy)"
It is the same in Co-Freemasonry too. If we cannot trust the word of a Candidate then they are unfit to be received into our Masonic Obedience. You ought to witness the searching interrogations that GOdF give to their Candidates!
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Post by maat on Nov 24, 2008 22:54:50 GMT
Hi Delux
I was going to become a nun at one time in my life. Thank God (oops bad choice of words) I didn't.
I believed everything in the bible was literally true at one time in my life. Thank God (not the anthropomorphical one) I discovered otherwise and when I was quite young fortunately.
I now know that the 'Holy Books' can only by truly understood when we discover 'the Keys' that will allow us to translate what they are really saying. What little I have learned about this reflects the absolute brilliant genius behind the 'holy books'. In truth, they can be read as science text books. Mind you, the science leads to meta-science.
Likewise - (sorry folks, said it before and will say it till I die) - Masonry tells you how the whole darned Universe works. Sciencewise, Bodywise, Soulwise, Spiritwise. Science to Meta-science.
So, sure an athiest can learn something from masonry, but you will only be able to go so far... for the Truth is a tad beyond what the purely rational mind is able to take in.
Same goes for non athiests who fail to follow the directions given in their ceremonies, to follow their In-Tuition. The In-tuitor IS the star in the East. (Yep-feet = South etc ;D Heck that would explain why the North is dark ;D ;D Heavily veiled one might say)
I was just prompted to add the words ... Truth is Stranger than Fiction ... (I think there was a publication or tv show or something that was devoted to this theme - aimed at the rationally minded no less).
Good luck in your quest delux.
Maat
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Post by brandt on Nov 24, 2008 23:21:40 GMT
Can an atheist be a Mason? Sure, I have met some Masons that are atheists. The question should actually be can an atheist be initiated into organization X or organization Y.
Brandt
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Post by leonardo on Nov 24, 2008 23:29:36 GMT
Can an atheist be a Mason? Sure, I have met some Masons that are atheists. The question should actually be can an atheist be initiated into organization X or organization Y. Brandt Hi Brandt, good to see you on the forum. I have met and spend considerable time with some Freemasons who happen to also be atheists, Paris Fred, for example and a more knowledgeable and worthy Mason you'll not come across.
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