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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 25, 2008 1:11:29 GMT
Any intelligent Atheist would profess a belief in God, because after you die and you arrive at the pearly gates , you could say 'I knew it all the time' , and you would get into heaven.
If you die and there is nothing, you don't even get the chance to say, 'I told you.'
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 25, 2008 3:04:22 GMT
Bro Bill, I think that is an adaptation of "Pascal's Wager". It's a cracker-barrel motto.
I have met Intelligent Atheists and Stupid Christians (and for that matter dim adherents of other faiths), and of course the opposite way round .
As one who over the years from my teens went from rejecting belief in anything but myself and what I could physically experience, to a reasoned belief in God, all I ask from any Atheist is that they accord to me the right to my beliefs and do not sneer and mock. That is why I have no time whatsoever for Richard Dawkins but do respect many other Atheists who live and let live.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 25, 2008 3:14:40 GMT
Agreed Bro. Steve
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 25, 2008 3:18:55 GMT
Bro Bill, that quote belongs to UGLE and Amity Freemasonry. As you know there are Masonic Bodies such as GOdF which are quite at ease with Atheists being members. I have sat in one and found it to be no less Masonic although a few years ago I would have bridled at such an idea. The actuality proved to be so different to the theory.
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 25, 2008 3:27:43 GMT
You would be highly unlikely to find this question my Forum as it is such a worn-out question. I have just poured cold water on a thread about whether women can or cannot be Freemasons as it is pointless - they already are both in my own Masonic body LDH and in Women-only Masonic Organisations such as OWF and HFAF. It has on other Fora resulted in a lot of Heat and Disharmony but very little Light where posters indulge in WW1 style Trench Warfare, and is a question which cannot be brought to a resolution.
Atheists ARE Freemasons, GOdF and the new GOUSA are proof of that. If there is any question it should be "Can I as a Freemason in a GL which requires a Belief in a Supreme Being accept an Atheist as a Freemason?" but that is a different question.
As for Lodges losing members, handing back their Charters and going dark etc, there are very many reasons for this, some is simply natural wastage as the post war generation die and are not being replaced by people of my age and the generation after mine. This situation is likely to get worse for a while owing to the Economic Crisis affecting most Capitalist Countries at present and for the next few years.
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Post by brandt on Nov 25, 2008 4:19:49 GMT
There are lodges in all streams of Masonry that are whithering. There are also lodges that are prospering in all systems. This just seems to be the way things are. Some lodges go dark and others are formed. Perhaps this is a natural occurance in the Craft. I suspect that it is entirely normal and nothing to be alarmed about. No, an organization that has as one of their fundamental rules that one has to proclaim a belief in Deity in order to be member should not reverse that organizational idea. They should hold true to it. They should hold just as true as those organizations that hold true the "absolute freedom of conscience."
In my lodge there is one atheist. Most fall into the deist or pantheist ideas while a couple are of more "orthodox" religious views. Then there is me a couple of others that are more mystically inclined ;-)
I find questions like "can women be Masons?" or "can atheists be Masons?" to reflect a lack of knowledge of the realities of the greater Masonic community. There are women and atheists that are Masons. That should answer the question.
The Craft will continue.
Frat.·. Brandt
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 25, 2008 10:26:28 GMT
Oh yes it only applies to UGLE and amity, it is one of the Anderson Landmarks.
But like all landmarks someone moves the posts when your not looking.
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 25, 2008 11:10:48 GMT
"But like all landmarks someone moves the posts when your not looking. "
Or even demolishes then and replaces them with something similar but better, e.g. Wembley Stadium?
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Post by corab on Nov 25, 2008 12:29:17 GMT
So, sure an athiest can learn something from masonry, but you will only be able to go so far... for the Truth is a tad beyond what the purely rational mind is able to take in. I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but you've drawn me in, Ma'at. Would you agree that Love is the ultimate expression of the Grand Plan? The mortar that keeps the stones together? Speaking of craft lodges only, I have experienced that love most overwhelmingly in lodges which do admit those who cannot profess to a belief in a Supreme Being. Those of our lodges which work the International Ritual focus very strongly upon Brotherly Love. From the moment the doors are opened to the Candidate, whilst s/he is still outwith the lodge, that love is impressed upon him/her, and all through the ceremony it is emphasised; most notably so with the SW's closing words: "Let our Strength be that of Love". Is Love a gift from TGAOTU? Is it our response to Him/Her/It and that Love? Is it that part of us where we are at One with All? One does not need to believe in a Supreme Being, or even a Creative Force, to experience the benefits of freemasonry, and to become a beneficent influence upon one's surroundings in return. It is the Love that we respond to more than anything, whether we recognise it as Divine or human. I agree with you that freemasonry is one of the systems which does hold the keys. A system so powerful; so deeply thought through, will have a place for a stone which does not conform to the general plans. Who knows -- that stone might have a very important part to play. Lapidem quem reprobaverunt edificantes hic factus est in caput anguli.h.g.w., Cora
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 25, 2008 12:38:39 GMT
"Lapidem quem reprobaverunt edificantes hic factus est in caput anguli."
I couldn't have put that better myself Bro Cora!
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Post by cosmicthought on Nov 25, 2008 13:19:33 GMT
ASE'
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 25, 2008 13:36:29 GMT
"But like all landmarks someone moves the posts when your not looking. "Or even demolishes then and replaces them with something similar but better, e.g. Wembley Stadium? At times yes. But then I have to wonder. I had words with my Worshipful Master the other night and I have to say I have heard this before by other young Masons. 'We dont get the time to learn as you did' he said. Well you can imagine my reply, it went something like, 'If you reach the Grand old age of 100, you will still not have completed as many hours as I have put in beofore I was 50.' So the architect of this particular WM structure has to get some facts straight, before he finishes the building contract. I don't know about the rest of you, but I started work at the age of 12 , I did a paper round in the morning before school. then Thurs and Friday evening and all day Saturday I did delivered Groceries on a one of those Trade Bike. When I left school I had saved enough money at the age of 17 to buy my own Car. Working 18 hrs a day was regular , Saturdays and Sundays up to about 6 years ago. So this WM has to learn there is more to life than his own experiences, so on this occasion no the change is not better, I would not have dreamed to say such to the PM's when I was in the chair. Change for an improvement yes, change for the benefit of one or the few , No !
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FireMist
Member
Then rally boys, and hasten on.To meet our Chiefs at the Green Dragon.
Posts: 293
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Post by FireMist on Nov 25, 2008 15:24:45 GMT
Firemist, Just to give you some specific background on my LDH conversation. ............. We either get hostility or pity in the form of the infamous "I'll pray for you."............ Delux, I am far from attacking you....I actually empathise you have neither hostility or pity from me. please re-read my previous statement. (BTW, my contact was in KY...heart of the 'biblebelt'..that may have had something to do with it) I would not presume to 'pray for you' as I would not wish anyone to force thier beliefs on me...... It matters not to me what you believe, or don't believe as it should matter not what i believe or don't to belive to you. It however matters if you lie to your perspective lodge. It does no good to start a new life on a lie. Take care, enjoy life....and I am glad you are seeking the path of knowledge. There are many paths. I recognize that, and would never try to 'convert' you....I believe the Holy Bible is not the only VSL, and am starting to gain a better appreciation/knowledge of some of the others. ...what is right for you, or right for me isn't necessarily right for someone else. Dont start with a lie, or prevarication and everyting will be fine.
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Post by keith on Nov 25, 2008 21:28:12 GMT
The question asked here is "can an atheist be a Freemason?" My dictionary defines an atheist as someone who does not believe in the existence of a Supreme Being or Creator.
One of the first questions you are asked when you express an interest in Freemasonry is "Do you believe in a Supreme Being" You are not required to define your understanding of that "Supreme Being" If you cannot answer "yes" to the question, you cannot be a Freemason. I can see nothing to discuss.
Any supposed "Lodge" which accepts atheists as members cannot by definition be genuine Freemasonry
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Post by brandt on Nov 25, 2008 21:33:17 GMT
Many Masons would disagree with those sentiments.
Brandt
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Post by paulh on Nov 25, 2008 21:58:30 GMT
If you cannot answer "yes" to the question, you cannot be a Freemason. I can see nothing to discuss. When I was young both the world and TV were black and white. These days both are in colour. This seems to me to reflect more fully the subtlety of Creation
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Post by maat on Nov 25, 2008 22:07:09 GMT
Would you agree that Love is the ultimate expression of the Grand Plan? It seems so to me. Love is strong. Love/empathy is the only reason I can possible imagine that would lead me to lay down my life for another (as long as you didn't give me too much time to think about it ), and people have lost their lives trying to save strangers and pets even. It is In-stinctual. Love rules OK. But you don't need Masonry to love and love will not keep people together in one locality. Children leave home all the time. So I probably don't agree 'that it is the mortar that keeps the stones together' in a masonic sense. Thinking this over, I think the thing that keeps the members of my Lodge together is the joy of the chase/search. We do not socialise very much at all, many are vegetarians, some don't drink - hey, I mean... The thing that makes us a family is the common joy we experience in sharing our discoveries of what the symbols and stories in Masonry might mean. We see in each other a slow but steady expansion of consciousness and our understanding 'of things' increases. We share personal experiences that those outside lodge might not understand and/or ridicule. THAT is what keeps the diverse personalities in our lodge together. Reading over this post I can see that what I am saying is that LOVE rules, but it is UNDERSTANDING that is the cement. And I guess when you understand someone you love them anyway. Maat
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Post by delux on Nov 25, 2008 22:09:27 GMT
Most will fall back on what they know. We must all keep in mind that Freemasonry is a regional practice. Not everyone belongs to the same organization, not all abide by the same bylaws or landmarks. If you are an atheist then your choices will be limited and you may have to work a heck of a lot harder but the light is avalible to you if you seek and desire enough. Firemist, No problem. Thanks for your post. Rock & Roll, Lux
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Post by corab on Nov 25, 2008 22:11:05 GMT
There probably was a reason why I was reluctant to engage in this thread, and given the narrow-mindedness expressed in some of the responses I am going to respectfully and lovingly bow out.
S&F,
Cora
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Post by delux on Nov 25, 2008 22:20:08 GMT
Maat, I have some questions regarding your latest post to me. I do not feel that they would be appropriate for the open thread as I am only interested in your answers. If you would like to PM me, it may result in an interesting conversation. Thanks, Lux
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