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Post by leonardo on Jun 17, 2009 7:25:43 GMT
News like this is welcome; it’s good to learn of such worthy ongoing global efforts to raise the consciousness among the general public of women in Masonry.
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Post by magusmasonica on Jun 17, 2009 17:38:42 GMT
It's not feminization but humanization and it is about damned time. ;D Love and Light,
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Post by brandt on Jul 17, 2009 3:31:23 GMT
Done properly I have no issue with it. Ramming it down peoples' throats - well then I have an issue that has nothing to do with gender.
Brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 17, 2009 20:17:36 GMT
Done properly I have no issue with it. Ramming it down peoples' throats - well then I have an issue that has nothing to do with gender. Brandt "A revolution is an idea which has found it's bayonets." - Bro. Napoleon Bonaparte
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Post by brandt on Jul 18, 2009 14:17:31 GMT
Bayonets are used in fights, combat, or tyranny. When used in an effort to force one's ideas down the throats of others - well that is tyranny of the mind isn't it. If one really wanted to get this concept accepted by everyone else on the planet it becomes necessary to educate them as to why.
Brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 18, 2009 19:54:36 GMT
Bayonets are used in fights, combat, or tyranny. When used in an effort to force one's ideas down the throats of others - well that is tyranny of the mind isn't it. If one really wanted to get this concept accepted by everyone else on the planet it becomes necessary to educate them as to why. Brandt Integrated Freemasonry has been officially on American shores for over 100 years. The "education" has been here. How long are we supposed to stand around and wait for "enlightend" men to get their act together and act like human beings? Love and Light,
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 19, 2009 0:06:58 GMT
You seem to have made Brandt's point for him exactly
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Post by brandt on Jul 19, 2009 0:19:32 GMT
You don't need to wait for me or for anyone else. Please continue with your enlightenment and I wish you the best. The point of the matter is that you have nothing to do with the organizations you seem to relish rattling your saber about. Why do you even care what they do? Would you be happy to force your ideas on everyone else?
I personally don't like or approve of bigotry. So I don't waste my time with them. If a lodge or organization wants to remain male only I would recommend not associating with them. On the same token you may want to avoid female only organizations as they are single gender Masonry as well.
I am not philosophically against mixed gender lodges. I am morally against forcing others to accept my beliefs.
brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 19, 2009 0:37:44 GMT
You don't need to wait for me or for anyone else. Please continue with your enlightenment and I wish you the best. The point of the matter is that you have nothing to do with the organizations you seem to relish rattling your saber about. Why do you even care what they do? Would you be happy to force your ideas on everyone else? I personally don't like or approve of bigotry. So I don't waste my time with them. If a lodge or organization wants to remain male only I would recommend not associating with them. On the same token you may want to avoid female only organizations as they are single gender Masonry as well. I am not philosophically against mixed gender lodges. I am morally against forcing others to accept my beliefs. brandt Excuse me Brandt but I am not aware of the criteria that we need only to comment on what we are personally envolved in. If that where the case then I would guess we would all have far less posts than we do on this, a public forum. I just as you, via my membership on this forum can comment on any topic I like. You can agree, disagree or not care about what i post. Just as I can do the same. I do not now, nor have I ever allowed what others like or do not like influence my own opinions that I have taken the time to develop. We must look deeper into issues at times. Surley divergent opinion isn't always to be discouraged? What a boring world if we all just agreed with each other and worse complacent smiles. Don't you think? Love and Light,
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 19, 2009 8:31:50 GMT
I joined Co-Freemasonry after 18 years in Malecraft for a number of reasons , but the cause of causes was the presence of Women as totally equal Brethren and the energies that they bring to balance the equation and complete the circle as it where.
Now I would be delighted if UGLE and Amity GLs allowed their Brethren to visit our Lodges and permitted our Brethren to visit theirs but being realistic I do not see happening for some time. However if those GLs DID make such a decision it would have to be of their own free will and not forced upon them against the wishes of the majority of their membership.
As for the situation of "persons of colour" being refused membership of Masonic Lodges on those grounds alone in certain Jurisdictions, to my mind that negates all the core tenets of Freemasonry as I understand them and is absurd in 2009 when the President of the USA, Barack Obama, is Black. I would mention to those who support such a colour ban that Solomon King of Israel, Hiram King of Tyre and Hiram a Biff, were not WASPS nor indeed was Our Lord Jesus Christ, despite the many depictions of Him by various European artists through the centuries.
Hopefully, in a few years such colour bars will be history and this Berlin Wall will be toppled as was its physical counterpart. Such a change however has to come from within, as would any change regarding Women Masons by the Malecraft GLs.
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Post by maximus on Jul 19, 2009 14:15:39 GMT
As for the situation of "persons of colour" being refused membership of Masonic Lodges on those grounds alone in certain Jurisdictions, to my mind that negates all the core tenets of Freemasonry as I understand them and is absurd in 2009 when the President of the USA, Barack Obama, is Black. I would mention to those who support such a colour ban that Solomon King of Israel, Hiram King of Tyre and Hiram a Biff, were not WASPS nor indeed was Our Lord Jesus Christ, despite the many depictions of Him by various European artists through the centuries. This has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
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Post by brandt on Jul 19, 2009 15:00:32 GMT
Comment away Brad. I don't think that you should have any problem discussing this issue with those of us who (by your opinion) don't act like human beings.
If you would be so kind as to enlighten me. By what moral right would you force every Masonic organization to become mixed?
Brandt
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 19, 2009 15:53:58 GMT
Discrimination is discrimination whether on the grounds of colour, ethnicity, gender, creed, socio-economic class, etc. I find the barring of people of colour from some versions of Freemasonry as objectionable as the barring of Women. However, I would not force such GLs to change by Power of Law but would hope that such reform would come from within.
Maximus, if you don't like it, that's a pity. Like Pontius Pilate, a good Roman like the man in your avatar, "What I have written, I have written!"
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Post by brandt on Jul 19, 2009 16:10:18 GMT
Without the emotional impact of a word like "discrimination" (Lauderdale I don't believe that you were using in it in its common emotional version - it appears that you were using in its natural state). All Masonic organizations discriminate to some degree based upon some criteria.
Brandt
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 19, 2009 17:02:38 GMT
Perhaps I ought to have said NEGATIVE Discrimination?
To me it is still wrong but it is no longer a problem I have to face in my Masonic conections.
I still contend that those Masons/GLs who do practice negative discrimination on grounds of colour or gender are in error but they must correct themselves and not have such a correction forced upon them by the Law of the Land.
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Post by brandt on Jul 19, 2009 20:51:22 GMT
You may be surprised by how many people actually agree with you.
Brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 19, 2009 21:22:47 GMT
How often the same agurments against intergretion come up. How so tired they are. One of the false accusations against intergretionists is the "they want to let EVERONE in" ortherwise known as the "open west gate" argument. This is a blatant emotional falsehood.
To base membership criteria on character, skills, accomplishments etc. if a far different thing that basing exculsion on a condition of birth. Frankly it is insulting that the two would be compared.
We need to face that there is no logical or Craftworthy reason for single sex Freemasonry to exist in this day and age. We understand that the Craft has deep masculine and femine symbolism. We understand that the Masonic lodge room is laid out in a way to symbolise male and female. We know that the chequred pavement represents male and female and that the the base symbol of the square and compass represents male and female intertwined.
Yet some persist in blocking off half of everything they should know "because it feels good."
This is nothing other than stupid pride. It is not a respectful position.
Love and Light,
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Post by maximus on Jul 19, 2009 21:52:06 GMT
Maximus, if you don't like it, that's a pity. Like Pontius Pilate, a good Roman like the man in your avatar, "What I have written, I have written!"Yes, you have written it, indeed. Nothing against you personally, but I tire of seeing race constantly being brought into the discussion. Not just here, either, but everywhere. If we are to achieve a truly color-blind society, race needs to be a non-issue. I understand that to be what you are really saying.
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Post by maximus on Jul 19, 2009 21:54:42 GMT
I still contend that those Masons/GLs who do practice negative discrimination on grounds of colour or gender are in error but they must correct themselves and not have such a correction forced upon them by the Law of the Land. Now, that is a reasonable position. People can't be forced to change their attitudes through force, unless one wants to institute re-education camps.
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 19, 2009 22:06:26 GMT
Maximus, if you don't like it, that's a pity. Like Pontius Pilate, a good Roman like the man in your avatar, "What I have written, I have written!"Yes, you have written it, indeed. Nothing against you personally, but I tire of seeing race constantly being brought into the discussion. Not just here, either, but everywhere. If we are to achieve a truly color-blind society, race needs to be a non-issue. I understand that to be what you are really saying. Why is race a non issue and yet gender is?
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