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Post by irishmason on Apr 29, 2010 8:27:38 GMT
Most of my brethren in the South find it incomprehensible that a double membership in the Orange Order and Freemasonry is allowed. When you study the website of the orange order and whe nyou read about them you will find thatthey are just an imitation of masonry. They have lodges, they have the 3 blue degrees, they have a purple chapter and a black preceptory, they call themselves brothers. It makes me sick. We are here put in the same pot with them and people who are interested in Masonry think that we are all the same. When I would join the Grand Orient de France, i would be thrown out, if I would join the Orange Order I would be patted on the shoulder.
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Post by lauderdale on Apr 29, 2010 9:23:45 GMT
Irishmason. I am surprised at your surprise. I would also suggest you never say this face to face to some Scots Freemasons who are in both Orders. BTW I am NOT a member of the Orange Order but I do know quite a few people who are, some of whom are also Freemasons under the GL of Scotland. Have a look at this accounts of the early history of the Orange Order from their own website. www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/history/Early_Years.htmlAlthough some of the symbolism of the Orange Order is similar to the of Freemasonry the two bodies are NOT joined in any way. Contrary to the opinion of some people the Masonic is NOT "a senior branch or Degree of the Orange". There is no connection. I have met several Roman Catholics who are Freemasons and The Craft will permit anyone of any religion or none at all to become members. RCs are not allowed to become Orangemen/women although I cannot see why an RC would want to.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Apr 29, 2010 10:00:27 GMT
Not only are Roman Catholics not allowed to join the Orange Order, one must declare oneself to be a Protestant Christian in order to join. No other religions are allowed, which is yet another difference from Freemasonry.
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Post by irishmason on Apr 29, 2010 10:13:58 GMT
.................................... Although some of the symbolism of the Orange Order is similar to the of Freemasonry the two bodies are NOT joined in any way. Contrary to the opinion of some people the Masonic is NOT "a senior branch or Degree of the Orange". There is no connection. I have met several Roman Catholics who are Freemasons and The Craft will permit anyone of any religion or none at all to become members. RCs are not allowed to become Orangemen/women although I cannot see why an RC would want to. I am not suggesting that they are joined in any way or that they are a senior branch, i know that myself very well, but what is bothering a few brethren is that the ritual is nearly the same, that they march around with officer collars same as us, that they have lodge banners, same as us, they have lodges sames as us, how can Seamus, John and Mike distinguish between them. By the way we have a lot of RCs in Irish Lodges, that is not a question and also Jewish brethren, but to be in an organisation which is intolerant and at the same time to be in an organisation which claims to be tolerant, is for me incompatible.
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ricardo
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Post by ricardo on Apr 29, 2010 12:25:01 GMT
I recall reading some time ago an interview with Irish journalist and author Ruth Dudley Edwards (now an atheist, apparently a former Catholic), who wrote the book "The Faithful Tribe: An Intimate Portrait of the Loyal Institutions". Apparently someone suggested to Edwards that she might consider joining the Orange Institution. Here's an article about how Edwards started to research the book: www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/nonfiction/RDE-writingTribe.htmlF&F
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 29, 2010 15:18:18 GMT
It was my understanding that Freemasons should show due respect for all Religions but I feel a certain disdain creeping in here please stop that from going any further.
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Post by droche on May 1, 2010 13:49:47 GMT
I think we are seeing here the same mindset about Orange vs FM as we do with other groups that have outward similarities with FM. Many misinformed (and Irishmason, I am not saying you are one of them) people see outward similarities of a group to Freemasonry and jump to the conclusion that the two must be related.
I have known several men who were members of both. Yes, the seeming intolerance of the Orange Order toward the Catholic faith does seem to be incompatible with FM. I have to admit that. But in all other respects all of the men I have known that were Orangemen were good men. I think the prejudice that might exist there goes back a long way and the origins of it are deep and complicated, much the same way that prejudice toward African Americans in the American South (and elsewhere in the States, BTW) is.
We don't throw those men out of FM. It's just one of the paradoxes of human nature IMO.
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
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Post by afterthought on May 3, 2010 4:10:10 GMT
Most of my brethren in the South find it incomprehensible that a double membership in the Orange Order and Freemasonry is allowed. When you study the website of the orange order and whe nyou read about them you will find thatthey are just an imitation of masonry. They have lodges, they have the 3 blue degrees, they have a purple chapter and a black preceptory, they call themselves brothers. It makes me sick. We are here put in the same pot with them and people who are interested in Masonry think that we are all the same. When I would join the Grand Orient de France, i would be thrown out, if I would join the Orange Order I would be patted on the shoulder. The Buffaloes, Oddfellows, Elks, Eagle, Forresters, Mechanics and many others have three craft degrees. They where officers collars. They have ritual. Do they make you "sick" too? The Orange Order do not claim to be Masons and seeing how they march at least twice a year in Ireland I would guess anyone with a reasonable IQ doesn't confuse them with Masonry. They are a specific religious and political organization. Just as Freemasonry is private and well within the law to establish their criteria for membership I see no issues.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on May 4, 2010 17:52:18 GMT
RCs are not allowed to become Orangemen/women although I cannot see why an RC would want to.Well, if nothing else, for purely social reasons. A surprising number of Catholics in Scotland are regular visitors to Orange halls, where they are signed in by their friends who happen to be in the Orange. It's said to be one place you can get a decent pint quite early on a Sunday, though I couldn't possibly comment I am a Catholic myself, as is well known to many of the Forum-members; though assuredly a most unusual one, in which respect my Masonic membership is very much of the least account ;D Not only are Roman Catholics not allowed to join the Orange Order, one must declare oneself to be a Protestant Christian in order to join. No other religions are allowed, which is yet another difference from Freemasonry. And so, not only can't Catholics get in, but Christ himself, against whom the gates of Hell could not prevail, would have to stand outside with the smokers. The Orange Order do not claim to be Masons and seeing how they march at least twice a year in Ireland I would guess anyone with a reasonable IQ doesn't confuse them with Masonry.But on the contrary, they do. The regalia of the Royal Black Institution (or Preceptory) includes an apron with the square and compasses. Even inside the Masons, it's common to suppose that everyone present is an Orangeman. I remember being on the Degree team of an Initiation, and in the bar afterwards the Right Worshipful Master was openly demonstrating to the new EA how the signs and forms of address in Freemasonry differed from similar usages in the Orange. They are a specific religious and political organization. Just as Freemasonry is private and well within the law to establish their criteria for membership I see no issues. Well, I see your point, and you're welcome to it. For myself, I know a good number of Masons who are also Orangemen, and many of them are perfectly decent blokes who are only in the Orange because of family ties and connections. Which makes it all the more bizarre that they continue to be associated with a society which persists in promulgating anti-Catholic sentiments. It would be different - still odious, but different - if this were in a purely antiquarian or ironic spirit, lambasting the historical figure of the Pope, the bugaboo of all right-thinking British subjects in days gone by. But it isn't. It's contemporary and vile - violent, too, in some cases. True, it's not the Orange themselves who are the worst, it's the so-called "camp followers", the louts and hangers-on, who cause most of the trouble. But even so, it would help enormously if the Orange themselves would lead from the front and lend a hand in crushing that bigotry they profess to abhor.
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afterthought
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Post by afterthought on May 4, 2010 19:23:16 GMT
RCs are not allowed to become Orangemen/women although I cannot see why an RC would want to.Well, if nothing else, for purely social reasons. A surprising number of Catholics in Scotland are regular visitors to Orange halls, where they are signed in by their friends who happen to be in the Orange. It's said to be one place you can get a decent pint quite early on a Sunday, though I couldn't possibly comment I am a Catholic myself, as is well known to many of the Forum-members; though assuredly a most unusual one, in which respect my Masonic membership is very much of the least account ;D Not only are Roman Catholics not allowed to join the Orange Order, one must declare oneself to be a Protestant Christian in order to join. No other religions are allowed, which is yet another difference from Freemasonry. And so, not only can't Catholics get in, but Christ himself, against whom the gates of Hell could not prevail, would have to stand outside with the smokers. The Orange Order do not claim to be Masons and seeing how they march at least twice a year in Ireland I would guess anyone with a reasonable IQ doesn't confuse them with Masonry.But on the contrary, they do. The regalia of the Royal Black Institution (or Preceptory) includes an apron with the square and compasses. Even inside the Masons, it's common to suppose that everyone present is an Orangeman. I remember being on the Degree team of an Initiation, and in the bar afterwards the Right Worshipful Master was openly demonstrating to the new EA how the signs and forms of address in Freemasonry differed from similar usages in the Orange. They are a specific religious and political organization. Just as Freemasonry is private and well within the law to establish their criteria for membership I see no issues. Well, I see your point, and you're welcome to it. For myself, I know a good number of Masons who are also Orangemen, and many of them are perfectly decent blokes who are only in the Orange because of family ties and connections. Which makes it all the more bizarre that they continue to be associated with a society which persists in promulgating anti-Catholic sentiments. It would be different - still odious, but different - if this were in a purely antiquarian or ironic spirit, lambasting the historical figure of the Pope, the bugaboo of all right-thinking British subjects in days gone by. But it isn't. It's contemporary and vile - violent, too, in some cases. True, it's not the Orange themselves who are the worst, it's the so-called "camp followers", the louts and hangers-on, who cause most of the trouble. But even so, it would help enormously if the Orange themselves would lead from the front and lend a hand in crushing that bigotry they profess to abhor. Since when is the square and compass the sole domain of Freemasonry? In fact the Square and Compass was featured on the flag of the DDR and as far as I know they did not claim to be a Masonic republic. From all of the official information I have been able to gather the Orange order do not claim Freemasonry or Masonic status.
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Post by goatrider on May 4, 2010 19:33:18 GMT
In fact the Square and Compass was featured on the flag of the DDR and as far as I know they did not claim to be a Masonic republic. wow bob wow There is no square. In fact, that is a fact. (attachment) Attachments:
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
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Post by afterthought on May 4, 2010 19:37:07 GMT
In fact the Square and Compass was featured on the flag of the DDR and as far as I know they did not claim to be a Masonic republic. wow bob wow There is no square. In fact, that is a fact. (attachment) A quadrant. Not a night and day difference. I hear that Lady Gaga has the deltrix tattooed on the backside of her left kneecap.
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Post by goatrider on May 4, 2010 19:56:29 GMT
I hear that Lady Gaga has the deltrix tattooed on the backside of her left kneecap. I don't understand what a deltrix is; is this a new word, or do you mean the "Deitrix" a.k.a. AShRH? Anyway, I bet it looks pretty rad.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on May 4, 2010 20:13:37 GMT
Is there a visible 'backside of the left kneecap?' The patella, or kneecap is a bone and in most circumstances does not display a visible 'backside.' The backside of the left knee is a place for a tattoo, but the kneecap would indeed be an odd and likely non-visible place to get a tattoo. Certainly, if Lady Gaga has one on the back of the kneecap, that is indeed both impressive and painfully pointless! ;D
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Post by rembrandt on May 5, 2010 0:16:26 GMT
How do you get a tattoo on the back side of your knee cap? Does that involve the removal, tattooing, and replacement of the knee cap?
Brandt
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Post by goatrider on May 5, 2010 14:44:50 GMT
lol, I was wondering about that too. ;D
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
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Post by afterthought on May 5, 2010 18:57:10 GMT
How do you get a tattoo on the back side of your knee cap? Does that involve the removal, tattooing, and replacement of the knee cap? Brandt Just as absurd as the Lady Gaga talk on a Masonic forum.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on May 5, 2010 19:39:12 GMT
How do you get a tattoo on the back side of your knee cap? Does that involve the removal, tattooing, and replacement of the knee cap? Brandt Just as absurd as the Lady Gaga talk on a Masonic forum. Perhaps not. There is obviously some connection with Gaga and Freemasonry. There is no connection a tattoo in an absolutely absurd place is far more absurd. Eris knows.
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Post by billmcelligott on May 5, 2010 20:34:42 GMT
Google search Results 1 - 10 of about 317,000 for Lady Gaga freemasonry
Itesh Freemasonry Results 1 - 10 of about 373,000 for Irish freemasonry
makes you think
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
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Post by afterthought on May 5, 2010 20:58:58 GMT
Just as absurd as the Lady Gaga talk on a Masonic forum. Sorry to crash the "Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland" thread but I'm not the one that has driven this astray. Because this has already devolved into a tit for tat, I will respond to the "absurdity" charge by "afterthought", as it is an obvious although deplorable attempt at slighting some of the recent discussions I've begun on different topics for discussion, as well as a personal attack of bullying on myself. "afterthought", I'm sorry that you don't understand the esoteric references, but they exist in not only the work of Lady Gaga but that of many other artists, and in fact, exist in many types of art, both "high brow" as well as in popular media. Lady Gaga has been featured on the net photographed in a masonic lodge amidst masonic symbols; how different is that from, say, a comic-book story by Alan Moore, made into a movie, that uses scenes from masonic rituals and suggests the typical anti-masonic ho-hum (yawn) conspiracy theory? Since at least on one level (the surface) some of these works deal with aspects of masonry, they certainly are "fair game" for discussion, whether you understand them or not, and the fact that you personally are unable to contribute something meaningful should not preempt others that can and are equipped with the intellect to do so. I feel sorry that certain individuals feel themselves so far above having a meaningful discussion regarding the Western Mystery Traditions they purport to fancy in their talk of "ritual" (which by making statements such as the above, demonstrate they clearly do not understand this material) that they feel they must disdain and put into disrepute those who do understand. The fact that you are making this into an issue by keying in on a singular personality such as Lady Gaga and allowing that to blind you to the larger picture that is being presented shows that you are not seeing the forest because there are too many trees in the way. In all cases, no matter who is the particular personality or "program" being used, esoteric symbols are powerful, and they affect each of us in a multitude of different ways. Is it so surprising that artists of all kinds use symbols that affect our inner psyche in their work? I would be surprised if they were not. Even little children can recognize the power of symbols, although they may not understand specifically what the message is, and yet I have to be told by a "mason" that having this type of discussion is somehow "absurd"? How many "masons" are prepared to have a discussion regarding the esotericism and symbolism of Richard Wagner's "Ring" operas, or are even remotely familiar with these 4 works, each lasting 4 hours in length? How many masons can discuss the use or the meaning of Fibonacci Series principles in advertising, in commercial music, in art music, in art, or in architecture? Yet I have to wade through hundreds of mundane posts about different obediences and regularity as if this is somehow meaningful until it makes me so sick that I want to vomit. Perhaps the reason we are subject to these types of "masonic discussions" is because our modern society has become so dumbed-down by Google, the Web 2.0 and their craving for instant gratification that they are totally incapable of understanding the various nuances and levels that lie beneath the surface, design, and structures of all art, no matter what type it is? That is what is absurd, and the fact that I have to defend the notion that [gasp!] esoteric and masonic symbols are being used in popular media by a particular media "personality" to individuals that parade and proclaim their paltry knowledge of "ritual", "magick" and the "occult" but yet are so totally clueless when these ideas and principles are dangled right in front of their face in the guise of pop music and video, and pretend to turn up their snobby nose at this when they obviously don't have an inkling of what any of this means, is pathetic. Even the anti-Masons are more clued in and can generate somewhat of an intelligent conversation about some of this stuff, although they are so far out there in left field that responding to their drivel is a waste of time. Under such circumstances, it is no wonder to me that when diagrams of Sacred Geometry are displayed on masonic boards that they are moved to the "Talking Chaff" sections. How sad. Sorry to crash this great thread about the "Grand Orange Lode", and I'm sure that someone will come along shortly to remove this post as so often happens. In the meantime, "afterthought", the next time you would like to offer your so-called "expert" opinion regarding what is or what is not an appropriate topic for discussion on a masonic board, it would be great if you knew what you were talking about. Since you don't, I would offer that your input into these other threads aren't mandatory, and since you aren't capable of offering anything of substance other than snide remarks and insults, perhaps you could stick to your boring discussions about the 1613 Nation, "Post-Modern Freemasonry" and the latest "ritual" you learned about on a "masonic forum". Back to the regularly-scheduled program. Nice tantrum. Such a high level of emotional maturity I am in awe.
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