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Post by cheyham on Jul 14, 2006 22:51:24 GMT
I've been asked recently. You think I should then?
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 15, 2006 0:01:44 GMT
I've been asked recently. You think I should then? Cheyam Don't make firm decisions on that subject except after advice from people who know you well. Some folks like esoteric orders such as SRIA, other people think it's a load of mumbo-jumbo and can't make sense of it. Whether it's for you depends on what sort of person you are. I know a couple of people who like the craft but tried both Mark and the RA, and couldn't get on with either. It takes all sorts ..... Difficult to offer advice on SRIA unless you tell us what aspects of freemasonry you like most. S&F, Julian MetCol SRIA
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Post by Proton on Jul 15, 2006 9:59:09 GMT
One very good book that is worth reading is Brian Jackson's " Beyond the Craft." It details all of the masonic orders and gives the entry qualifications etc. as well as a bit of the history of the relevant orders themselves. If you can get it there is also another good book called Introducing Freemasonry, by M de Pace, was published by Lewis Masonic, and is now sadly out of print, but may be purchased fom certain out of print book shops. I joined the Red Cross of Constantine this week, and a delightful ceremony it was. Proton
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Post by kizzy on Jul 15, 2006 14:09:58 GMT
I have just come back from AMD at Wokingham. I was Tyler. The District Grand Prefect was there, charming gentleman, no pomposity. He entered the Lodge without demanding anything and a good time was had by all! Perhaps Craft should emulate the Higher Degrees in some matters?
Congrats on joining RCC, Proton, you will just love the Appendant Degrees thereof. ENJOY!
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 15, 2006 18:38:11 GMT
Hi Proton One very good book that is worth reading is Brian Jackson's " Beyond the Craft." It details all of the masonic orders To prevent disappointment .... No it doesn't! There are several missing, even from the current edition. But it is a very good book. Best, Julian
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 15, 2006 18:41:57 GMT
I have just come back from AMD at Wokingham. I was Tyler. The District Grand Prefect was there, charming gentleman, no pomposity. He entered the Lodge without demanding anything and a good time was had by all! Perhaps Craft should emulate the Higher Degrees in some matters? he can demand all he likes ... the bolt's on the inside of the door, not the outside Seconded. Which Division are you in proton? JS
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Post by Proton on Jul 15, 2006 20:42:04 GMT
It is the Sussex Division. Proton
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Post by kizzy on Jul 15, 2006 21:30:28 GMT
That's the point, he DIDN'T Demand admission. He was simply announced and escorted in by the Council's own DC, then was Saluted. Also I don't imagine I will ever see a Lodge bolt the door on its PGM (or Deputy or APGM), at least not in UGLE Craft Freemasonry, the position of the bolt is irrelevant.
Possibly we should adopt the custom of both the House of Commons to Black Rod and a Cathedral when a new Bishop claims admission. Both slam the door in their respective faces as a gesture of their Independence. Now can you imagine being able to slam the door in the face of some rather pompous Provincial DC at an Installation and his having to knock three times with his wand to request admission for himself and the Chain he was escorting?
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Post by mrmason on Jul 15, 2006 22:20:08 GMT
Congrats Proton
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Post by middlepillar on Jul 15, 2006 22:30:33 GMT
I've been asked recently. You think I should then? I would agree with Jules on this, it is really important you get input from people you know who are in it, or ask as many questions as you can! Some consider The SRIA as the door to the 'real' Higher Degrees, I would say that there is a lot of Esoteric Orders that can be reached only through this door! When I first started posting on TFM I started a Thread called 'Side Orders Only, Please!' Because I feel Masonically you can go no Higher than the 3rd Degree. And everything else is a 'side order' You can however go on a wonderful Masonic Journey! It did create quite a bit of opinion and a lot of views I admit I didnt consider before, but I pretty much remain with the same opinion! The Higher Degrees are those that I would consider to be truly esoteric, this is not to say higher in a I am better than you way but these degrees do take you in to esoteric territory (As in seen and understood by few) and there are an awful lot of Masons who are not intereted in this. I am not commenting on what people should or should not do just the facts as I see them!
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 16, 2006 11:06:22 GMT
That's the point, he DIDN'T Demand admission. He was simply announced and escorted in by the Council's own DC, then was Saluted. Also I don't imagine I will ever see a Lodge bolt the door on its PGM (or Deputy or APGM), at least not in UGLE Craft Freemasonry, the position of the bolt is irrelevant. Kizzy my friend, it was a joke. I find the vision of a member of the chain gang trying unsuccessfully to get in while the members say "go away, we're busy" amusing. I have this strange sense of humour, and you can't always take me seriously. Didn't you see the emoticon? A little humility does us all good. But you'll have to get that independence first. Read a PGM's patent, it gives him certain rights. There's one on the wall at Cole Court, Twickenham (now closed for summer recess). S&F, Julian
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 16, 2006 18:08:44 GMT
I suppose that, as in so many things, a compromise is the best answer. The chain gang must have the right to demand admission, but should not use it unless they have to.
I recall that when I was an EA one of the chain gang arrived uninvited. I was so junior I had no idea why he was there, but most of the other members did, and were all very subdued. He demanded admission and gave us a right royal arse kicking. The man was an ordained minister = full time professional speaker and excellent at what he did.
Best not to discuss details, but it needed to be done, and the technique of turning up uninvited and demanding admission added to the effect. It made a lasting impression, and made me a better mason.
JS
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 16, 2006 19:20:41 GMT
As I understand it they don't have the right to demand anything in Scotland! Lodges have a lot more autonomy there in fact not in theory. I suppose I will have to either move closer to Scotland or take out life membership of a Scots Craft Lodge and attend it whenever I could.
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Post by a on Jul 16, 2006 20:07:55 GMT
Taylorsman
A thought.
If you have someone demand admission because his ego is huge, after all he is the Grand whatever, and he wants all to know who he is and obey his every word without question or thought then you have a very good point. Arguably such a person should think about properly preparing themselves and retaking the EA but that is another issue.
But what if you have a lodge whose members only pay lip service to the tenets, or whose local community considers corruption to be rife, and the powers that be can see that there could be something to it, should the powers not have the right to demand to be there, to keep an eye, to guide and support, to sweep away the darkness and illuminate? I realise that there is a little nievity in my words here but I do so for simplicity. What if the Lodge is close to being expelled from UGLE (warrant possibly being withdrawn or so many members under disciplinary investigation etc)? If a Lodge wishes to benefit from being part of a fraternity then it needs to accept that there could be situations where the powers of the fraternity will need to be there, even when they may not be welcome. Otherwise it would be all to easy for wrongdoings to take place under the cover of Freemasonry. And in time that would just lead to fraternal disharmony, illness, and death.
A lodge pays its money to be part of UGLE, that is its choice, it could affiliate to LDH, GLFMW, RGLE, GLAE etc instead. The lodge chooses to be part of UGLE. As with all choices comes responsibility, in this case, one responsibility is to do things the UGLE way. If its members choose to be intolerant, to abuse their positions, not to actively search for truth, but to instill darkness in the lodge and through visitation infect other lodges, then it is only right that the powers can demand admission, until the warrant is revoked. Without the right of admission the powers that be are in a relatively weak position to investigate, to be there, to guide, to help illuminate.
With quality powers that be that are True Freemasons, it would be unlikely to be a problem anyway. The only real problem would be if someone who has missed the point of it all or who is not a Freemasons in anything other than membership of a Lodge, is in power.
Apologies to AMDers but thought it better to answer the point within the flow of the recent posts.
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 16, 2006 20:28:35 GMT
Stewart, I have no problem with that. In the highly unlikely event of a Lodge being in such a terrible state there are already Rules to cover such matters and rightly so.
I am instead refering to the 99.9% of Lodges which keep to the Rules.
I believe they ought to be cut a bit more slack , for example to be able to chose where they meet within reason and to vary the times and dates of their Meetings , to be left to follow whichever of the recognised Rituals they wish with no need to seek approval or dispensations from the Province. I know of Lodges who for economic and other reasons wish to change their venue but are refused permission to do so by their PGM, in my opinion he simply should not have that type of power but be an Area Administrator who only intervenes in the event of serious misbehaviour by a Lodge or its members as you have exemplified.
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Post by middlepillar on Jul 16, 2006 20:35:12 GMT
I would like to ask the moderators to split off this topic within a topic, mainly because it is developing in to a completely different discussion (From AMD!) and there are a lot of forum members who may not be looking at this thread because they have no interest in joining any other Order! And They May be interested in this topic!
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Post by kizzy on Jul 16, 2006 21:14:39 GMT
Unfortunately I would have to move the whole thread unless I cut and paste the posts in question. Do you wish me to simply delete all the non AMD only posts as frankly I think this is an issue that will get bogged down in trench warfare as there is not a lot of common ground between the two camps as far as I can see.
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Post by a on Jul 16, 2006 21:34:42 GMT
frankly I think this is an issue that will get bogged down in trench warfare as there is not a lot of common ground between the two camps as far as I can see. One of the beauties of True Freemasonry is its ability to bring people of divergent views together in harmony. If trench warfare results then Masonic work is required. Tolerance, helpfulness, seeking truth. Simple really.
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Harmony
Member
The Craft ; 1241 & 1386 & 1706 (Hon) (SC). OSM - Polnoon Castle Conclave. HRA - Rockmount & Camphi
Posts: 337
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Post by Harmony on Jul 18, 2006 7:42:27 GMT
As I understand it they don't have the right to demand anything in Scotland! Lodges have a lot more autonomy there in fact not in theory. I suppose I will have to either move closer to Scotland or take out life membership of a Scots Craft Lodge and attend it whenever I could. The Grand Master Mason (and any Grand Lodge deputation in fact) have the right to demand admission in Scotland. Provincial only request.
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 18, 2006 11:59:30 GMT
Thanks Bro Harmony, and that, IMO, is how it OUGHT to be down here!
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