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Post by antoninus9 on Oct 24, 2007 13:05:45 GMT
How dare Prof. Jacob suggest something so vile and un-Masonic! Perhaps we should have her drawn and quartered just for good measure, and of course burn all her books! (sarcasm implied and intended)
This isn't the first time in the history of Freemasonry that the rights of brothers/sisters everywhere have been threatened. Allen E. Roberts founded the Philalethes Society to combat the same issues back in 1928.
"Some Masonic leaders ... had endeavored to warp the minds of the greatest intellectuals in Freemasonry. By banding together [the founders of the Philalethes Society] believed the tyrants would consider "the prospect of being held up to the scorn of the whole Masonic world." ... The new Society was formed [1928-10-01] "to create a bond of union for isolated Masonic writers and also to protect editors of Masonic publications from undeserved aggression" from the tyrants of the day." -- Allen E. Roberts, in Seekers of Truth, 1988
So... vtmason, as you said, "Whatever." lol
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Post by antoninus9 on Oct 24, 2007 2:39:22 GMT
Actually, what we have in America today isn't "Freemasonry". As Prof. Margaret C. Jacob accurately points-out; Freemasonry was at the core of eighteenth century Enlightenment thought. Somehow I find it difficult to relate the present system with the ideas of Liberty, Equality, Freedom of the Press, Right to Trial by a jury of your peers, and Freedom of Conscience.
I think what we have today is an organization that looks like Freemasonry but acts in opposition to everything that Freemasonry once stood for. I'm not sure it can honestly be called "Freemasonry". Perhaps "Not-so-Free-Masonry" would be more accurate.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Oct 23, 2007 14:33:36 GMT
devoutfreemason may not have enough "practical" experience but I do. ;-)
In Georgia, Florida and Alabama, if you seek enlightenment in way other than that which the Grand Master agrees you will be threatened, and then erased, suspended or expelled.
Freedom of conscience is wholly unknown in these states. The only people who sing the praises of these Grand Lodges are those who have something to gain financially from their involvement, or those who have no problem with blind obedience.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Oct 11, 2007 22:34:01 GMT
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Post by antoninus9 on Feb 21, 2008 22:16:58 GMT
Bro. Leo,
It seems that Freemasons are sometimes too quick to judge other people without a full understanding of what the other group is really about. Ed King is the worst for this type of behavior.
He reaches the wildest conclusions from the most common events. For instance: he concludes that the GOUSA is a "shell game" because it changed its name. He makes the same conclusion about Sirius lodge. Any Mason who has read the history of the Fraternity knows that the Grand Lodge of London (est. 1717) changed its name to the Grand Lodge of England a few years after its founding and then again to the UGLE about 80 years later.
Lodges change their name as well. It is a common practice in the USA. What is today Halcyon began as one lodge in 1875, then in the 1880's it changed to Halcyon and then in the 20th century it became something else and then around 2001 it changed back to Halcyon.
Ed attacks others in a similar way. He doesn't know them or make any attempt to understand what they're doing, he just goes after them with guns blazing. His motto seems to be the same as the 101st Airborne: "Kill them all, let God sort them out."
If members of the Esoteric Masons were dissatisfied or felt they had been ripped off then I think we would hear about it through blogs and forums. I'm not aware of a single complaint against them.
We need to be careful and take a balanced and honest look at people before judging them. Masonry teaches tolerance and we should try to live up to that high ideal. (at least in my opinion we should.)
This forum has always been a place where sincere, honest, open-minded Masons could express their ideas. It's an example of how brother/sisterhood can work. Let's not allow ourselves to be dragged into the mud of name calling and mud-slinging against people who have done us no wrong.
S&F
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Feb 21, 2008 4:47:59 GMT
I paid $250 to join the Scottish Rite and all I got was the ability to watch six poorly performed plays and a fake gold ring.
I paid about $125 for the three degrees of the Blue Lodge and all I got was a bunch of old men leading me around in circles trying to remember the words of a ritual that none of them had clue what it meant.
Gilbert charges $35 (or whatever) and gives you study materials and attempts to teach you mediatation and other spiritual practices.
I'm sorry but I don't see much difference. If anything at least Gilbert tries to get you to think through reading.
Leo, to answer your question, I don't think any of the Esoteric Masons would have any interest trying to attend any of our lodges (yours, mine, the UGLE, or anything else). They see this as a religion, not a philosophy or fraternity.
In the end different people need different things to be happy. Let them be happy. There's no need to attack them just because they're different from you. (If, however, they're corrupt or involved in illegal activities then expose them!)
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Post by antoninus9 on Feb 20, 2008 3:22:26 GMT
Have any of you actually spoen with Gilbert, the leader of the Esoteric Freemasons? Of course Ed King never actually speaks with anyone or tries to learn the facts about those which he writes.
I've spoken with Gilbert a couple of times and I don't think he is running any kind of scam. Here's the real story.
Gilbert used to be a regular Mason but was more interested in the esoteric side of things. A Gnostic church that began back in the 1930's (date ?) and based on Freemasonry and the Kaballah changed its name in the 1970's (date ?) to the Esoteric Freemasons. (I don't remember the exact dates. Sorry)
This group believes that Freemasonry is more or less a religion, and as such should be open to everyone. They don't claim to be "regular" or even interested in speculative Freemasonry. It's just a small group of mystics pursuing things in their own way. Since they were very honest in answering all of my questions and never prentended to be anything they are not, it would be unjust to label them a "scam".
Believe it or not talking to people is a much better way to get accurate information about something than endless speculations and attempts at deductive reasoning based on pseudo facts. :-)
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 4, 2007 16:39:02 GMT
JMD,
Your words express my thoughts far more clearly and eloquently than I have managed to do. Thank you.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 4, 2007 0:48:31 GMT
Maat,
When I said: "The present method of conducting witch-hunts will ultimately fail because they don’t know who is involved with all the little groups or how many of them are working together to undermine the present system." It was to state what is taking place. The purpose of the post, however, was to search for solutions that could avoid this and allow everyone to work together in harmony.
Isn't it about time to stop all the fighting and start building the future together as brothers/sisters?
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 3, 2007 15:09:12 GMT
Very clearly stated Bro. Brandt. Much better than what I posted.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 3, 2007 14:10:51 GMT
Gaslight,
Reason can never prevail in the presence of blind faith. You cannot argue that the earth is a planet orbiting a star to a person who, based on faith, believes the earth is the center of the universe.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 3, 2007 13:11:16 GMT
So before there can be a way forward it is necessary to decide (or discover) whether: - Masonry has a mission with the human race (shared with other spiritual orders) - Masons have a genuine interest in advancing that mission Cheers Russell Mission statements are common among almost all modern organizations. American Freemasonry (perhaps others as well) has adopted: "We make good men better" or some derivative of that idea. I believe this is a very poor mission statement for two reasons: 1. It focuses on the individual and does not provide a vision of how this is to be accomplished. 2. As Aristotle pointed-out we tend to believe that we are already good, and that our actions always benefit the good (self). The earlier mission of Freemasonry was better (IMO) and provided a stated goal and purpose. "Freemasonry is dedicated to the brotherhood of all mankind under the all-seeing eye of deity." In today's language it may be more accurate to say: "Freemasonry is dedicated to the brother/sisterhood of all of humanity under the all-seeing eye of deity." There are multiple benefits to the old mission statement: 1. It is a group vision as opposed to an individual one. In other words it is something we, as Masons, can work towards together as a group. 2. It lights the path to resolving many of our own internal problems as an organization. i.e. If our mission is the brother/sisterhood of all then we must begin by recognizing all Masons as such and do away with the divisive internal politics. 3. The brother/sisterhood of humanity is a concept that the public can understand and buy into. 4. The concept of the brother/sisterhood of humanity does not step on the toes of the world's religions. Religion is about making you better and purifying your soul, while extending brother/sisterhood to all is a part of universal human morality. This mission does not reflect anything overtly spiritual. The spiritual aspect of the Craft is unique to every individual and their experience. By not being overtly spiritual we avoid issues with the world's religions. What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 3, 2007 3:39:08 GMT
Bro. Russell,
Thank you for your very enlightening post. It has given me pause for further contemplation on some issues that I hadn't fully considered.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 3, 2007 1:55:46 GMT
Our lodge just updated its web site to be more informative and include forums. It's all new so there's not much to report just yet. Our old web site was very basic. It is our hope that the new helps people understand what we are doing as Freemasons. Give us six months and I will have a better idea of how well it is working.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 3, 2007 0:29:39 GMT
I don't think you understand what I meant in my post. This is but one of many little groups. Sure the GL should investigate but to what end? A witch-hunt?
Our problems cannot be solved through witch-hunts. We need to start communicating and being honest with one another.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 2, 2007 23:30:07 GMT
I'm looking for solutions to complex problems.
Some of the new organizations are clearly viable. The RRCG is an example of this. After being declared "clandestine" and losing its place to meet it continued to grow over eighteen months and is now building a temple facility. While at the same time the local mainstream lodge closed and put its building up for sale. The RRCG and groups like it are only one example though.
I see too much time and energy being wasted fighting among ourselves when this could be put to many better uses. Thus it becomes important to find solutions to these issues, and that is the point of my post.
How do we find a middle ground? How do we get people to work together constructively?
Talking is certainly a good start.
Jeff
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 2, 2007 19:45:42 GMT
Masons Working Together?
American Freemasons are kind of like crabs in a bucket; if one group starts to make progress in climbing out the rest just pull them back inside. I think there are several reasons for this type of behavior ranging from petty jealousies to fear of change. None of this internal bickering and back-biting works towards the good of the fraternity overall.
Many Masons are quick to point-out that I’m a rule breaker that refuses to work within “the system.” This, however, isn’t true but a generalization of what they heard someone else say on some Masonic forum. Contrary to popular belief I’m not the revolutionary rumor has made me out to be. I much prefer to work within the system where possible and only break free of its bonds when I realize nothing can be accomplished within the given framework. Anyone who knows me will tell you that whether it’s Freemasonry or my professional life I’m the type of person who always gets the job done regardless of how difficult or problematic it may be.
There is a growing divide among Masons in America today. Some are not very happy with the present system or its leadership. As a result of this secret little groups are popping up across the country. Everyone has heard of the RRCG and UGLA but they are just the most publicized of these groups. Recently the Grand Lodge of Connecticut discovered the “Committee to Preserve Masonry” and according to their web site (http://gl.ctfreemasons.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=165&Itemid=55) they are investigating it. They’re wasting their time because it is but one of many.
Being a perceived revolutionary leader has its advantages. Everyone who dislikes the present way things are being done tends to want to speak with you and make you aware of what’s happening in their neck of the woods.
The Grand Lodges are now faced with how to deal with the growing number of secret groups that want to see some changes. They can conduct draconian witch-hunts or try to discover a way to work through the issues and resolve the problems. The present method of conducting witch-hunts will ultimately fail because they don’t know who is involved with all the little groups or how many of them are working together to undermine the present system. Witch-hunts are a way of informing everyone of their own fears and proving just how malicious they are willing to be in order to maintain absolute power and authority. Witch-hunts are also counter-productive to the future of the Craft and only increase existing internal divisions.
The most reasonable and Masonic choice of action is to try and discover how to resolve the issues at hand and get everyone working together on the same page. The overwhelming obstacle that lies in the way of accomplishing this is the lack of trust between the opposing parties. The progressive Masons don’t trust the powers that be because of their past draconian practices. The Grand Lodges don’t trust the progressive Masons because they fear many of the changes they wish to implement. The challenge we now face is how to get these two groups to talk openly and honestly about the situation.
So long as the present situation continues Freemasonry will pay the cost of the conflict. An organization divided against itself cannot stand.
I don’t have a good solution to the present problems and would like to hear from everyone on both sides of the proverbial fence. Is there a solution? If so, how do you envision it working? Merely saying “everyone needs to work within the system” simply isn’t enough. If that were the solution the problem wouldn’t be growing. Ignoring the problems by claiming: “it’s only a few disgruntled Masons” is to remain blind to the reality that’s taking place.
Maybe today can be the day we start finding solutions instead of creating more problems.
Jeff Peace
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 7, 2007 19:31:37 GMT
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Post by antoninus9 on Aug 30, 2007 17:13:37 GMT
Do you think egregore plays a role in this?
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Post by antoninus9 on Sept 10, 2007 15:01:26 GMT
Now I will proceed to make the sun go away as a demonstration of this truth. ;-)
Jeff
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