staffs
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Staffs
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 7:28:28 GMT
Post by staffs on Jan 14, 2005 7:28:28 GMT
Is the IPM actually an officer of the lodge ?
I had this discussion with our IPM last night and he said in the inner working he is installed as IPM so he states he is an officer.
Any other info ??
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 7:58:55 GMT
Post by waynecowley on Jan 14, 2005 7:58:55 GMT
My understanding is that he is not. He holds the position of IPM as of right being neither appointed by the WM nor elected by the brethren
Wayne
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staffs
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Staffs
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 8:34:18 GMT
Post by staffs on Jan 14, 2005 8:34:18 GMT
Then what about the bit in the inner workings ??
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 8:41:40 GMT
Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Jan 14, 2005 8:41:40 GMT
Surely the answer to this question depends on your Lodge Regulations. Ours, for example state that "the Officers of the Lodge are as follows, in Order of Rank: Master, IPM, SW,,..etc
At the Installation of our RWM's the first officer THEY invest is the IPM, as of right, being the one vacating the Chair.
We actually vote for, RWM, Treasurer & Auditor. All others are appointed by the RWM.
In our Workings only Officers wear Collars of Office,& untill recently cuffs. This includes the IPM, thus indicating his position. Again we have a general rule that the Office you are invested for in a particular year is yours for that year. You must carry out that duty at all meetings you attend, irrespective of whom may be absent. The RWM may request you also deputise/act on behalf of any other Office vacant, BUT the IPM may never LEAVE their station during such meetings. A proper IPM should also be ready to take the chair at a moments' notice and conduct the current meeting on the Adgenda.
The fact one is INVESTED as the IPM makes him an Officer, and they have some important duties to perform at each meeting, other than being in the East.
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Agent J
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On a Mission from God...
Posts: 127
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 8:46:26 GMT
Post by Agent J on Jan 14, 2005 8:46:26 GMT
Under Emulation, as far as I can remember, the words used are "invest the IPM" (with his Collar and Jewel), as opposed to "appoint and invest your Officers".
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 9:04:23 GMT
Post by waynecowley on Jan 14, 2005 9:04:23 GMT
I can't comment on what may or may not be said in the Inner Workings as I am currently only SW - will be installed in November (TGAOTU) permitting - and I don't have my Book of Constitutions to hand (I'm in work) but I'm fairly sure that the IPM is not listed in the list of officers of the Lodge
Wayne
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staffs
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Staffs
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 9:06:35 GMT
Post by staffs on Jan 14, 2005 9:06:35 GMT
im sure we have done this one before elsewhere.
i am now quite intrigued to know the correct answer
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 9:54:39 GMT
Post by taylorsman on Jan 14, 2005 9:54:39 GMT
Before Doric quotes his favourite bedtime book chapter and verse, as I understand matters, (and this has indeed been covered on another Forum), the IPM is in that position "As of Right" having been the previous WM, so he is NOT an Officer of the Lodge and is NOT Appointed by the WM or Elected by the Brethren. The First Duty the new WM has as soon as he has been Installed in the Chair during the Inner Workings is to Invest the IPM with his Collar and Jewel and in some Workings he states that this is of right and not within his power (as WM) to confer.
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 11:53:38 GMT
Post by Late Knight Chemist on Jan 14, 2005 11:53:38 GMT
The term Immediate Past Master (IPM) is descriptive. It is not an office. The rubric is contained in your Emulation ritual book so that you can learn it.
A key part of the rubric is the request for help should the incoming Master need it. Indeed that assistance is volunteered immediately. Without the request for help attaching the investment the IPM would not really have any authority. The new Master is guided to do what he has to do until the Officers have been appointed and invested. Only then can the lodge be said to have been fully handed over over to the new Master.
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 12:27:50 GMT
Post by waynecowley on Jan 14, 2005 12:27:50 GMT
But not all of us work Emulation - as far as I am aware (and as I said above I have not yet experienced the Inner Workings) - there is no reference in the Oxford working
Wayne
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 12:31:05 GMT
Post by Trinityman on Jan 14, 2005 12:31:05 GMT
Taylorsman et al are perfectly accurate ( you see, you can get by just fine without Doric ;D ) and as a result lodges must be particularly careful not to accidentally exclude him. He would not be eligible to attend an Officers' meeting, for example, unless it also included Past Masters.
I don't think it is the norm in England for the IPM to 'leap to the assistance' of an absent Master as may the case elsewhere. In the event of a vacancy in the Chair in Trinity a Past Master (or two) is invited to do chunks of the work. This is both kinder to the IPM and an opportunity for former Masters to get back in the Chair if they want. This is important as some freemasons are known to lose interest after their year in the Chair due to boredom, completed challenges etc.
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 13:51:11 GMT
Post by Late Knight Chemist on Jan 14, 2005 13:51:11 GMT
OK, for once the Emulation Book has a plus.
Bill, I was referring only to the remainder of the installation meeting. It would be tough on the new Master to expect him to take over fully immediately on taking the chair.
Emulation reads:
... I have pleasure in investing you with this Jewel [pause] as the Immediate PM of the Lodge, feeling assured from the manner in which you have transacted the business of the Lodge during your Membership, that, should I at any time require assistance, my reliance on your sure co-operation will not be misplaced.
It may have made better sense to start a new sentence after the pause - ie. "As the IPM ..."
Bill, you are quite right and at all other times no one should assume a right or duty to fill an empty chair. The IPM may be an obvious person because ritual ought to be freshest in his mind but it is not a right. On the contrary, in England even when the chair is handed over to another past master there should be a degree of humility about the process. Theory has it that the customary handshake serves to pull or draw the reluctant PM into the chair.
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 15:08:17 GMT
Post by Trinityman on Jan 14, 2005 15:08:17 GMT
I guess the most obvious way in which the IPM assists the Master during the year is by prompting. Although this isn't the case everywhere, there are advantages in having a nominated prompter as it removes the prime excuse for the 'unofficial' prompters who were 'only trying to help' . The IPM is close to the Master and, with practice, can prompt sotto such that those further away may not even realise it is going on. If you ask any Master who they think is the most important person in the lodge many will say the IPM for this very reason! Personally, I think that in practice the fact that the IPM is not technically an Officer is fairly irrelevant.
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 16:24:10 GMT
Post by Late Knight Chemist on Jan 14, 2005 16:24:10 GMT
... should ... I require assistance ...
... should ... I require a prompt?
I have only known the IPM acting as the official prompt so it is easy to assume that this is universal.
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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IPM
Jan 14, 2005 18:36:22 GMT
Post by staffs on Jan 14, 2005 18:36:22 GMT
I was fortunate to visiy an installed masters lodge who carry out raising and passing of other lodges and at the installation the PGM forgot his words and ws prompted by most of the past masters present .approx 250 !!!!!
Goes to show everyone is normal
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IPM
Jan 15, 2005 0:38:27 GMT
Post by Late Knight Chemist on Jan 15, 2005 0:38:27 GMT
Lee,
I have a theory that all PMs are perfect - meaning that as PMs they recognise their own mistakes in those who follow.
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IPM
Jan 15, 2005 4:44:28 GMT
Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Jan 15, 2005 4:44:28 GMT
Regarding Prompting, In CoMasonry the DC has the Official duty of Prompt. His is the only office permitted to correct or advise in Open meeting.( apart from the RWM)
Occasionally the RWM would seek advice from the IPM sitting immediately to his left, and more so if the DC was otherwise engaged at the time.
Whenever the RWM is doing floor work the IPM replaces him in the Chair, in fact that is the only office (appart from IG & Tyler) that may be temporarily left vacant.
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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IPM
Jan 15, 2005 13:20:12 GMT
Post by bod on Jan 15, 2005 13:20:12 GMT
Lee, I have a theory that all PMs are perfect - meaning that as PMs they recognise their own mistakes in those who follow. Wow - some chutzpah you got there Bruce! I just hope that for every PM that thinks he knows it all, there are enough who can recognise the importance of people making their own mistakes and learning from them. Thinking one knows it all leads to a state of atrophy - its not much better than WADITW. However, we do need the PM's - the ones in my lodges have been a great help to me.
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IPM
Jan 16, 2005 14:00:35 GMT
Post by Trinityman on Jan 16, 2005 14:00:35 GMT
However, we do need the PM's... Phew - that a relief! I dread to think what the alternative would be !!! It'd be Logans Run all over again. "Worshipful Master, having installed your sucessor into the Chair of King Solomon you are now cordially invited to retire from the lodge, never to return ;D ;D ;D
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IPM
Jan 16, 2005 15:27:50 GMT
Post by taylorsman on Jan 16, 2005 15:27:50 GMT
An interesting thought, some PMs having to undergo the ordeal of "Carousel" and being zapped by Lasers.
Seriously, after the year as IPM some PMs are left high and dry. I like the practice of some Lodges of having the Office of Tyler reserved for the the IPM when his year as such is over. Other PMs of course then go on to join or if already Members, take office in Mark, RA, or the Higher Degrees. I am highly unlikely to ever do the Craft Chair again but am going up the ladder in some of the many other Orders I am in, as well as Tyling for a second year for my London Lodge.
I have read that it is when their year as IPM is over and there is nothing for them to do in their Lodge that some PMs drop out. Maybe the Mentoring idea will give them a sense of purpose and allow them to help newer Brethren, and of course there are jobs such as Assistant Secretary which they could do to help the Secretary in his many tasks and gain valuable insight into the Admin side of the Lodge.
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