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Post by maximus on Feb 15, 2008 9:47:28 GMT
So Hitler was perfect for the Creators desire at the time? (and therefore could be considered blameless? Judas likewise?) Maat the problem is if Hitler wasn't perfect for the Creators desire, It is to suggest that the Creator can make a mistake. I don't think that is possible. If you ask me was Hitler good or bad - you are asking me to make a judgment that I could only make on the basis of my human experience. Which would be wrong. As the Creator was within each of Hitler's cells just as within yours as mine. The very same creator. Can't see how the Creator in Hitlers Cells can be in error and the Creator in mine not in error. I wouldn't presume to judge the Creator - after all it is the Creators game we are all playing. When I look at the Hitler's of history I start with the perfection of the creator and then seek to understand the reason for the Hitlers. This is assuming that the Creator is a divine puppet-master manipulating our every move. The Hitlers of the world arise because they exercise thier free-will to do so. I've seen no evidence of divine intervention in recorded history, so apparently what we do in life is on us. |
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Post by maximus on Feb 15, 2008 9:50:02 GMT
Does "free-will" play a part in this? Absolutely. We are on the same page. |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 15, 2008 21:30:42 GMT
The Hitlers of the world arise because they exercise thier free-will to do so. Precisely. Also, dogmatic insistence on the perfection of the Creator doesn't wash. One might also point to notions of dual, triple or many (even infinite) principles, all of which are echoed in Judeo-Christian theologies. |
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Post by maximus on Feb 15, 2008 22:09:27 GMT
If we take into account the Gnostic viewpoint, the Creator of this world, the Demiurgos, is evil, and matter, by extension, is inherently evil. Some of which found its way into the new Testament despite revision.
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Post by sniffles on Feb 15, 2008 22:41:50 GMT
I want to try and explain how I see this Hitler thing and other dramas that unfold here on earth at certain risk and peril of being misunderstood.
First I think that universal life force, which is and animate everything is beyond human conceptions and values - therefore beyond good and evil, right or wrong, because these are words we make up and give meaning and value to.
Secondly I was in a play once where I was this builder of a Temple and I had a secret. These Ruffians wanted this secret and conspired together to kill me for it, and they succeeded. My friend Solomon found out and had these three ruffians murdered in retaliation... then the play was over, and we all retired to the break room, leaving our characters we played behind for another day.
Both the Ruffians and Solomon committed premeditated murder. None of them are good or bad, because beneath the wardrobe and character they took on they are all brothers.
In my opinion life is very much like this. Each of us has our own private drama we play, which is overlapped onto a much bigger collective drama. We all have a little character in this grand play. And each age or season on this earth is like a degree, one built on top of the other, the previous effecting the one to come.
Life is like a roller coaster. Its all the ups and downs in life, all the mystery and uncertainties put together, that makes this such an exciting ride, and brings us back for more.
If Hitler never existed to play his part. The world as we currently know it would be very different. The same goes for all the Gangis Khans, Stalins, Maos, Pol Pots, Washingtons, Lafayettes, and so on.
Hitler was neither good nor bad. He just played his part very well... and the Jews got something out of it - their own Nation.
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Post by maximus on Feb 15, 2008 22:56:24 GMT
I would disagree in that the reason that the Hitlers and Stalins came to power is because good men stood by and did nothing. Those of selfish disposition aided thier rise to power out of greed and self interest. There is no discenable Divine plan to the scheme of things, history is accident and chance. The action we take at this moment determines the future, so it is changing from moment to moment.
As it says in the Declaration of Independance, and I'm paraphrasing here, people are inclined to suffer while thier lot is tolerable. Power hungry individuals rise, and nothing is done because our particular ox is not gored. Once it hits home we are charged with the desire for action.
That a good comes out of evil does not mean that the evil served some divine plan. It simply means that, once the evil is vanquished, good men attempt to put things right as best they can.
The creation of the state of Isreal has brought it's own problems into the world, that we are dealing with in the present time, and for the foreseeable future.
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Post by whistler on Feb 16, 2008 2:11:30 GMT
I am not walking the same path as many worthy posters on this topic.
I start with the Understanding that The Creator is in every one of my cells - I am God - just as every living creature is God.
I know the creator Knows every thing that is was and ever will be. The whole thing is his idea
I can't accept that the creator makes mistakes or accidents occur.
If I look back at the Hitlers of history I wasn't there at the time (Unless in a past Life) so the actual experience was not a lesson for me.
What I can do is look back at the effect that "Hitler" had on many people and places - I can seek understanding why the creator wished for those things to happen and also the effect Hitler had on people around him. It is looking at cause and effect.
To judge well that is not possible.
Can I say Hey God in the physical body of Hitler you caused big trouble.... I Think Not.
If the creator wasn't in the Cells of Hitler, I can't think of what could be.
No amount of me saying Hitler was a bad guy can possibly alter anything that happened.
By observing what happened because of Hitler existed much can be achived.
All through time there has been Hitlers followed by a lurch in Humanity.
Was Hitler any different to the Americans who put smallpox in the blankets of Indians, Or the Australians who stole the children - It is just a question of scale.
HGW
PS Sniffler a excellent post
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Post by sniffles on Feb 16, 2008 2:45:37 GMT
Thank you brother Whistler.
Brother Maximus said: "I would disagree in that the reason that the Hitlers and Stalins came to power is because good men stood by and did nothing."
I do agree with this; but the power or force men like these had did not come from people who did not do anything. It came from the millions of Germans and Russians who were spellbound and believed in these men... who filled their armies and did as they were told.
Stupidity kills sometimes.
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Post by hollandr on Feb 16, 2008 3:39:10 GMT
>the millions of Germans and Russians who were spellbound
I recall an account of Rommel going to see Hitler to explain that the battlefield realities were nothing like assumed by the orders from the High Command. And after a couple of days with Hitler, Rommel came away believing in victory. It took a week for him to return the realities experienced at the front.
That might indicate a significant ability on the part of Hitler (or his sponsors) in projecting an illusion into one of the strongest and most analytical minds in the German armed forces. How could that be?
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Post by sniffles on Feb 16, 2008 4:13:40 GMT
>the millions of Germans and Russians who were spellbound I recall an account of Rommel going to see Hitler to explain that the battlefield realities were nothing like assumed by the orders from the High Command. And after a couple of days with Hitler, Rommel came away believing in victory. It took a week for him to return the realities experienced at the front. That might indicate a significant ability on the part of Hitler (or his sponsors) in projecting an illusion into one of the strongest and most analytical minds in the German armed forces. How could that be? This was interesting. Maybe its like a Catholic Priest (Rommel) going to see the Pope (Hitler)? I guess when you have faith in something or believe in something - like whatever the Nazi Party believed in or was doing, you suspend your common sense? There are probably many factors. But Hitler was a great speaker. He had all those down troddened Germans (who lost face in the first world war) literally adoring him and they gave him whatever power he wanted. |
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Post by Antonius on Feb 17, 2008 12:58:11 GMT
hitler was the night, and as such a neccity, or perhaps more accratly an inevetability.
but keep in mind, our 'society' has never seen anything but darkness.
light and dark have never been balanced for us.
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Post by maat on Feb 17, 2008 23:15:24 GMT
hitler was the night, and as such a neccity, or perhaps more accratly an inevetability. but keep in mind, our 'society' has never seen anything but darkness. light and dark have never been balanced for us. Hence the words 'Masonry' and 'Darkness visible'? At least we are bright sparks in the darkness. Maat |
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 29, 2008 10:00:55 GMT
An interesting thesis , Sniffles and one that various societies have tried to follow down the centuries.
I won't make any moral or political comment on it but would state that inbred groups usually suffer as result. King Tut was married to his sister which was the custom at that time for Egyptian Royalty. They produced no viable children, only stillbirths. In our own European Royalty there was not only the incidence of haemophilia, as show by the Russian Tsarevich in the early 20th century, but many incidences of mental disturbances etc.
There is an old saying that, whatever we may say in public, most of us would love an Elite as long as we ourselves could be part of that select body.
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Post by maximus on Feb 29, 2008 13:14:49 GMT
Brother Sniffles, before you go any further down this road, I suggest you educate yourself on the movement known as eugenics. The eugenics movement, championed in this country by Margret Sanger (founder of planned parenthood), was concieved to "control" the population of "undesirable" and "degenerate" races, i.e., anyone not white and upper class. Check these links: www.waragainsttheweak.com/www.all.org/abac/eugenics.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 29, 2008 13:48:28 GMT
Perfect Ashlar & The Royal Art.
Disclaimer, opinionated and biased essay by me. Please, please tell me you are joking again. |
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Post by leonardo on Feb 29, 2008 18:38:38 GMT
What Makes our Ashlar perfect? What are the rules that define perfection. Who made those rules Who is the judge? I think we do ourselves a disservice if we allow others determine for us what "perfection" is. For me such perfection is simply not attainable. Personal perfection, on the other hand, is something we should aspire towards. |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 29, 2008 19:28:02 GMT
Unfortunately brother Tamrin, as much as i respect and admire you, these are actually my private opinions and beliefs. I guess we all have some opinion on these matters and mine is diametrically opposed to yours. I suspect that " mongrel vigour" has played a positive role in the US and Australia, while any worldly success associated with eugenics may not be so much attributable to the preservation of effete blood lines as to the preservation of estates and to preferential treatment between its practitioners. As with animal husbandry, I guess the outcome depends, in part, on the traits being selected and those being culled (the practice of culling is why animal husbandry is not swamped with effete individuals; whereas any culling advocated by extreme practicioners of human eugenics seems to have been directed at those displaying "mongrel vigour" — i.e., the most capable "mongrels" are generally the least favoured by Eugenicists). In reality, human eugenics does not go much beyond favouring "nobility," most of which can be traced back to rewards for service in hand-to-hand combat, rather than to traits currently appropriate. |
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Post by maximus on Feb 29, 2008 20:00:15 GMT
Let's speak of the Refined Humans first. These are the kings and queens who have been specially bred and refined to think and be be CEO of a political institution. These are the aristocrats who are to think and maintain, progress or innovate human society with their power and influence. These are the generals who have been bred to think and problem solve issues of warcraft to expand an empire I find that I can't agree with this point of view. You should know that Tamrin and I are both of mixed Aboriginal and Native American ancestry, respectively. You should understand how this comes across. |
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 29, 2008 20:05:20 GMT
I have "robust" views on many matters myself, but I cannot help but feel very uneasy about the concept that Sniffles has posted above.
I agree with Tamrin that the inclusion of other genes has proven to be more beneficial than detrimental. However when it comes to mixing Cultures and Values then there could be a case for a Nation to maintain its own.
Unfortunately this is one of those subjects which even after 63 years is still very sensitive grounds to discuss.
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Post by maximus on Feb 29, 2008 21:20:47 GMT
We all, as human beings, have the potential for greatness, or obscurity. Our nobility of spirit, or our ignominy, depends entirely upon how we choose to utilise the natural gifts that the Creator has bestowed to each of us equally. Ancestry, station in life, and accident of birth, have little to do with it. The great have risen from obscurity, and the gifted have failed utterly too many times in human history for this to accident.
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