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Post by maximus on Mar 7, 2008 4:39:30 GMT
Max - perhaps you should go and do some study rather than just spouting what comes into your mind. I've given you the answer - which you have stated as 'crap' without any argument to the contrary - which is what? - Ad Homenim. The premise is this: that we are entitled to the fruit of our labor. Please present a logical arguement as to why we are not entitled to such. Calling what you have written crap is not Ad Homenim. I did not state that you are crap. I have pointed out in my previous posts, however, numerous examples of where you have directly impuned my motives and my intellegence. In fact, you did so just now. |
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Post by maat on Mar 7, 2008 5:20:32 GMT
If someone takes what I have by force and re-distributes it they steal my opportunity spirit/soul growth.Matt - that is said out of frustration I suspect - unless you perceive the Australian Government as 'stealing by force'. Taxation is part of life - get use to it. Oh - are we talking about tax evasion? I was thinking more along The Little Red Hen line. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Henwww.bres.boothbay.k12.me.us/wq/nnash/WebQuest/little_red_hen.htmSorry I will pay more attention next time. A reasonable Tax rate isn't stealing, its a condition of residency. Rent or Maintenance Fee. I have no problems with tax. Maat |
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Post by maximus on Mar 7, 2008 5:50:40 GMT
If a man proposes to redistribute wealth, he means explicitly and necessarily that the wealth is his to distribute. If he proposes it in the name of the government, then the wealth belongs to the government; if in the name of society, then it belongs to society. No one, to my knowledge, did or could define a difference between that proposal and the basic principle of communism.
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Post by wayseer on Mar 7, 2008 6:41:14 GMT
Please present a logical arguement as to why we are not entitled to such.
Where, Oh where have I said as much? I have not. I have said something completely different to a post to which you and Brandt and Maat then waded into without digesting the thread or the argument. Having jumped in with your own assumptions blazing you then have set about to justify something that was not in existence until you reinterrupted what it was I was talking about. Having failed completely to understand my argument you then threw into the mix bits of your own personal ideology to try and prove something - what I don't know - that you have an ego - that you are competitive? Then you try to browbeat me into some sort of submission by calling what I wrote 'crap' and despite you protest to the contrary, illustrates how you think of me . Actually what I wrote is science but you are unable to comprehend as much.
Unfortunately none of you have understood what I was talking about nor do you wish to. The Masonic Forum of Light is very dark hereabouts.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 7, 2008 6:56:21 GMT
If you don't think you will like the answer, don't ask the question. |
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Post by leonardo on Mar 7, 2008 7:19:35 GMT
Unfortunately none of you have understood what I was talking about nor do you wish to. The Masonic Forum of Light is very dark hereabouts. It must be terrible for you John not to be understood as you wish to be understood. Having a pop at the forum I fear will only add to your apparent frustration. |
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Post by maximus on Mar 7, 2008 7:26:35 GMT
I thought it would be an interesting side disscussion. And I understood your point about evolution. Perhaps if you were not so harsh with those whom you consider your intellectual inferiors, you would not be treated so in return.
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Post by middlepillar on Mar 7, 2008 10:09:07 GMT
Hey Guys!
Can I ask you all to take a breather?
We seem to be getting first political and now personal.
For all of us reading it has been a very intersting debate/topic I have been intersted in most of the replies, but this is a masonic Forum not a political one and it is against the rules to get personal.
Please all take a breath and come back with reasoned argument not personal argument.
Thanks
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 7, 2008 10:20:06 GMT
I agree but can there also be a bit less of the pedantic High School Debating Society approach from some posters? It sure as hell riles people and may be counter-productive as it can provoke a personal retort where that may otherwise not occur.
People do have strongly held opinions and may often say things from the safety of an Internet Forum which they would not face to face.
A frank discussion is useful and enjoyable whereas a dry academic debate can be boring, but it behoves posters to throttle back on the invective. I can be as guilty as the next in this respect but have on occasion gone back and either edited or even deleted my posts when I have considered that I have gone too far.
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vtmason
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Running Dog Lackey
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Post by vtmason on Mar 7, 2008 12:15:58 GMT
I'm 1/4th Scott, 1/4 Irish and 1/2 English on my fathers side and 1/4th Abnaki Indian, 1/4 French, and 1/2 Scott (or 100% French Canadian) on my mothers side. Studies have shown that our heritage, bloodlines so to speak, do have bearing on behaviors, etc. as does the conditioning of our upbringing and personal experiences. I was born and raised on a small dairy farm in the North East corner of Vermont, that my father and twin brother Burton still operate. The topic though is the perfect ashlar. Not to take away from anyone that would argue this more than me, but isn't the perfect ashlar representative of the destination? I would think that the rough ashlar is the beginning, life is the journey between the ashlars and the perfect ashlar is end result, perfection after a long and toilsome journey. Freemasonry is a tool given to us by the GAOTU, along with religion and spiritual studies, and philosophy and whatnot, to improve and shape our ashlar along the way. Freemasonry has given me brothers of a common bond to share the journey, free of supposition and strife free of bias. It has nothing to do with what country I live in or what my particular lineage might be.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 7, 2008 12:23:09 GMT
I am of working class Scots lineage with a good bit of both types of Irish , both Ulster Protestant (Andrews) and Southern Irish RC. However I have lived in Southern England for 36 years, all my Adult Life and twice as long as I lived in Scotland so my Scots/Irish temper which does flare up from time to time is moderated by my having assimilated to a great extent to Southern English conventions and practice. I am also to a great extent self-educated in pragmatic and empirical way rather than an academic background.
That is the Stone I have to work on. Between then Christianity and Freemasonry have given me the Tools.
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Post by brandt on Mar 7, 2008 12:55:58 GMT
No system built on a faulty premise can work. See the great worker's paradise of the USSR. The entire premise of the collective having the right to the fruits of your labor is "legalized" theft, and theft by force at that.
You are right about one point though, cooperation is important to humanity. Cooperation through trade, free market, and liberty. Sticking a gun in someone's mouth and taking their wealth (however small or large the amount of wealth is) is not cooperation, that is force and slavery. It is not charity if one is forced to do it.
Do you have a job Brother? Why do you work? I know why I do. I like to produce and be rewarded for it. I like to see the labor of the human mind given form. From this I procure my necessities. From this I procure my luxuries. True, I don't need the luxuries. I do enjoy them though, including this computer.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Mar 7, 2008 13:01:31 GMT
As odd as this sounds this does link into a discussion of the rough and perfect ashlars. Is the rough ashlar a good material for a building? Why or why not? How about the perfect/smooth ashlar, is that good building material? What is the difference and how does it become different?
Brandt
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Mar 7, 2008 15:03:50 GMT
There was no mortar used in the building of King Solomon's temple. The ashlars used were perfect. Freemasonry though is build with imperfect ashlars, living stones so to speak, hence the importance of the cement of brotherly love and friendship at the hands of the trowel. Curious though, cement actually keeps the ashlars from touching.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 7, 2008 21:27:24 GMT
I agree but can there also be a bit less of the pedantic High School Debating Society approach from some posters? It sure as hell riles people and may be counter-productive as it can provoke a personal retort where that may otherwise not occur. People do have strongly held opinions and may often say things from the safety of an Internet Forum which they would not face to face. A frank discussion is useful and enjoyable whereas a dry academic debate can be boring, but it behoves posters to throttle back on the invective. I can be as guilty as the next in this respect but have on occasion gone back and either edited or even deleted my posts when I have considered that I have gone too far. I suggest you may be exaggerating and seem to imply the choice in some cases is to be "boring" or personal. I would not be so quick to dismiss calls for intellectual honesty (including an avoidance of ad hominem attacks). If such calls do indeed rile people, then I suggest they are still better than the alternative and are in accordance with the forum rules. How do others feel? |
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Post by brandt on Mar 8, 2008 0:28:14 GMT
It is my opinion that if one cannot handle an intellectual discussion without resorting to school yard tactics they should withdraw from the discussion, go home and learn some civility. My opinion of course. Brother Maximus and I do agree on several items. I have had the pleasure of communicating with him on many subjects on a few forums. Of course there is most likely an item or two that we would disagree on. This stands true with my dear Sister Karen. We agree on a lot and disagree on a lot. VtMason and I have had discussion in which we disagreed and many more on which we agree. Though we all stand in different Masonic jurisdictions and at times hold different philosophic view points we are all Brothers.
Some of the Brethren around here were there for me when I was going through a tough spot in my life. Others have been nothing but Brothers to me at all times (like Brother Bill McElliot).
What we have here is Free Masonry. We may disagree and argue our respective points but that does not interfere with our harmony nor our mutual respect. If one cannot hold to those points of Brotherhood and mutual respect then they have a lot more work to do before they should be allowed to sit at the adult table.
Brandt
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 8, 2008 1:06:23 GMT
The Lamarckian theory is that particular traits could be passed on through individual 'competition'. One ought not overstate the differences between Lamarck and Darwin, indeed Darwin held Lamarck in high regard. We read: Like Darwin and later evolutionary biologists, Lamarck argued that the Earth was immensely old. Lamarck even mentions the possibility of natural selection in his writings, although he never seems to have attached much importance to this idea.
It is even more interesting to note that, although Darwin tried to refute the Lamarckian mechanism of inheritance, he later admitted that the heritable effects of use and disuse might be important in evolution. In the Origin of Species he wrote that the vestigial eyes of moles and of cave-dwelling animals are "probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection." |
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Post by Gimel on Mar 20, 2008 20:16:21 GMT
Does perfection exist? Maybe not in this physical world, but to me, it certainly does.
The Master Jesus said "Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)," and to me, that "Perfect Ashlar" represents the inner temple I am trying to build. For that temple needs to be perfect in order for my God to dwell fully in me. I am trying to build this inner temple and the cornerstone of that temple needs to be constructed with a perfect ashlar.
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Post by leonardo on Mar 20, 2008 20:29:37 GMT
Does perfection exist? Maybe not in this physical world, but to me, it certainly does. The Master Jesus said "Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)," and to me, that "Perfect Ashlar" represents the inner temple I am trying to build. For that temple needs to be perfect in order for my God to dwell fully in me. I am trying to build this inner temple and the cornerstone of that temple needs to be constructed with a perfect ashlar. We all need to work on our own Ashlar, that's for sure. But it is an on-going process and it is never made totally perfect, at least not for long. It is something we must continually work on each and every day. |
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Post by Gimel on Mar 20, 2008 20:35:47 GMT
Was the Masters Jesus, Buddha, and Zoraster perfecf? Did they reach perfection here on earth?
Were they born perfect?
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