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Post by maat on Jun 6, 2008 3:21:20 GMT
True, he is what you state. ;D Nice try P. But I was not referring to to elshamah. |
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Post by maat on Jun 6, 2008 3:22:41 GMT
Never did like Bible bashing - so I am out of here. Good thread learned lots.
Maat
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 6, 2008 4:07:30 GMT
elshamah,
You can post multiple links if you like. I have read all of them. And frankly, I simply cannot respond to the inaccuracies of each and every one. Time simply will not permit. What I will say is that I am bothered that you continue to just post the opinions of others with no real knowledge of what they are talking about.
It reminds me of the "travel cards" I once had a German tourist pull out and hand me on the street. The card said "Can you direct me to the nearest pharmacy?" I then gave him directions in english, which he was unable to understand because *both the original question AND the answer were in a language which wasn't his*.
You have posted the ideas of others, which you have no understanding of.. and have asked us for our responses. When we respond, you simply switch to another set of links (again, not your work) and go from there.
I will thank you for making me think about my walk with Christ today, and try as I could.. I just don't recall in his dealings with people he thought were lost, where he barged in and began demanding that they justify their beliefs. I recall that he met with them at their level and got to know them. As St. Francis said.. preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words. Christ was never boisterous or forceful in his witness. He was kind and drew others to him through his tenderness. I recall when he met the woman at the well, he demanded "Is it right or not to be an adultress?" Ummm, no. That's not what happened. You are convinced you are correct. How, I'm not exactly sure as you are speaking on a subject on which you have no direct knowledge (and speaking so authoritatively to people who DO).
I will answer one more time and ask one more time that YOU answer.. then I will close and bless you in Christs name:
Is FM a religion? No.
Who is the God of FM? There isn't one.
What is the plan of salvation in FM? There isn't one.
Can someone be a Christian and a Mason? Yes, I am.
Finally, why did you become a Mason? I was, without exception, impressed by the Masons I had met. They held themselves to a very high standard, and yet were very gracious and caring for others. My sister suffered from significant birth defects (Spina Bifida) which was completely treated, free of charge, at a Shriner's Hospital. I was also drawn to the historical aspect which linked me to many, many great men throughout history. And finally, I do enjoy meeting with men of other walks of life and even other faiths, where we unite to work together for those less fortunate. The anonymous works of charity I have seen in the lodge have been beautiful.
Finally, my question to you:
Seeing that I have been a spirit-filled evangelical Christian for over 25 years and am active in multiple ministries in my church as well as being a Master Mason, Royal Arch Mason, and Knight Templar and a Line Officer in my Lodge, which of these is true?
1. I am not really saved.
2. I am a liar.
One of these MUST be true based on what you have said in this thread.
By what basis would you doubt the word of someone who holds the same faith that you do, AND has been on "the other side of the door" as a Master Mason.. and yet stand so fast to your belief that I am wrong when you have no knowledge whatsoever of what Masonry actually involves?
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Post by alchymicalmason on Jun 6, 2008 4:22:03 GMT
This thread has demonstrated for this individual (me!) why we should NOT engage in conversation with those fundamentalists whose minds are (unfortunately) closed to reasonable, rational debate. As most of you know, I am new to this site and I think that the people in this forum demonstrated an enormous amount of compassion and restraint toward the dissenter! I was also truly impressed by the amount of rational, informative responses! If nothing else, you all demonstrated an incredible knowledge of the sacred texts and showed that your integrity could not be trifled with! I feel truly blessed to be able to call you my Brothers! Peace to all of you! Especially the Christians! ;D |
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 6, 2008 6:04:13 GMT
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Post by leonardo on Jun 6, 2008 6:26:07 GMT
There is a really wonderful website that has a book called "World Scripture" located at www.unification.net/ws/ and is free by downloading. Thank you Bro. P. for sharing the very valuable link which I have just favouritised  |
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Post by penfold on Jun 6, 2008 7:09:14 GMT
Is freemasonry a religion? No And as for Albert Pike, he simply wrote his opinion, no man, or woman, ever has nor ever will speak for freemasonry as a whole Is this true? Not even Bill? Nah, not even dear Bill...... ;D |
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Post by leonardo on Jun 6, 2008 7:10:09 GMT
thevoiceofreason, as Freemasonry is open to followers of different religions why would you, as someone who claims to be a fellow Mason, try to dissuade Christians from their beliefs? I am curious too as to what your GL/Obedience is?
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Post by penfold on Jun 6, 2008 7:17:47 GMT
Elshmah, every single one of the links you have posted in the course of the topic are well known for containing lies and disinformation.
if you wish to be seen as credible or as having any cred9ibility or truth in your arguments you will need to do some research on sites and in books that do not speak falsehoods.
Your mind is being polluted by the evil that men do in lying and deceiving their fellow man, EMFJ is well known as a site containing malicious and false information, as do most of the other links you posted.
Remember, you may be new to these arguments and falsehoods, most of us have seen them for years and know them for the false words they carry.
There is a term in computing GIGO, means garbage in, garbage out - you are caught in this cycle, you are polluting your mind with garbage and falsehoods spread by those with hate in their heart for something they cannot and will not understand, subsequently most of what you are repeating is 'garbage out'
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Post by leonardo on Jun 6, 2008 7:24:56 GMT
Is this true? Not even Bill? Nah, not even dear Bill...... ;D Who can we blame then  ;D |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 6, 2008 8:23:24 GMT
I will not waste effort in doing what merely encourages Angelo. However, as a rhetorical question for others: IF, as Angelo insists, Freemasonry WAS a religion, would diabolical accusations such as his be acceptable on anything other than sites fostering religious bigotry?
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Post by maximus on Jun 6, 2008 8:51:08 GMT
IF, as Angelo insists, Freemasonry WAS a religion, would diabolical accusations such as his be acceptable on anything other than sites fostering religious bigotry? No. Those with true spiritual understanding would not attempt to coerce another into a path by browbeating them. It is tantamount to the initiation of force. Reasoned argument is quite another thing entirely, and is to be welcomed among rational people. It has ever been the bane of monotheistic belief systems that there is no middle ground, if one takes the literal path; either my God is the one true God, and you are worshiping the devil, or the reverse. There is no win/win, only win/lose. |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 6, 2008 9:33:37 GMT
Nah, not even dear Bill...... ;D Who can we blame then ;D Lets be honest, it wouldn't be the first time. But I have a broad back so blame me, no problem. |
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Post by lauderdale on Jun 6, 2008 10:10:13 GMT
I can agree once more with Bro Maximus.
For my own part, just as I do NOT accept that there is only one true and exclusive form of Freemasonry , I likewise am not a supporter of exclusivity in Religion.
There is but one God as far as I am concerned, we all have our own names of the Supreme Deity but these are human constructs and The Great Architect of the Universe is as good a title as any. Now I personally believe that Jesus Christ was Son of God, the personification of the Creator and that he suffered, died and rose again from death for all of Humanity. That is my Faith, but I do not force it upon others and to be honest I do not have a lot of time for those such as Fundamentalists and Evangelicals who do.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 10:42:37 GMT
well , i am in complete disagreement with you in this point. Of course you are. You can have no other choice since you choose the dark side to worship. I shall pray for your delivery from darkness. and what makes you believe such a nonsense ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 10:46:28 GMT
i don't agree with you : It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness. . .to teach the immortality of the soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . .and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads us to the honorable and virtuous maturity, and that the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss. . . .the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation. The only thing you have written that could possibly come close to being construed as a plan for salvation is "... the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded..." If you say that is a plan for salvation, so be it. I say it is a stretch to call it a plan. By the way, let's assume that it is a plan for salvation. If it in fact is, it doesn't seem to me that it is at variance with what Jesus Christ taught was the way to salvation, so I don't see why you would have a problem with it. (?) Additional edit: This just hit me and I don't know why I didn't pick up on it right away, but you also wrote: "the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation." That is just not true. That is not said or written anywhere in Masonic teachings or anything close to that. Master Masons are not taught that by virtue of their being Master Masons that they are saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith of salvation, or anything close to that. It would be un-Masonic to assume such a thing. Where did you get that from? Sorry, but that is bizarre. i have highlightened what clearly is a plan of salvation : By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . so it's not by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but by its legende and all its ritual. That's clearly a plan of salvation, a alternative way. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 10:48:47 GMT
Jesus died for our sins, there is no doubt of this. Did Jesus, himself, say that? If so I would really like to be able to check it for myself. By the way, Jesus was NOT a Christian. Seems He might have been an Essene. Christianity began after his death. Interesting to note that there were two factions even in the early days of Christianity, the version that survived was not the teachings of his beloved desciples, who were given the inner meanings, but rather the Paulian teachings. Remember Paul, when he was Saul, he sought out to suppress Jesus and his followers. Personally I think his plan succeeded beyond all expectation. But that is just my opinion. Imagine this.... there are no books... just our intuition to guide us... could you cope? Maat says YES! Jesus was not a Christian, he was Christ himself. The one, that the Christian follows, and is transformed, to get similar to his character and way to be. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 10:51:48 GMT
I joined Freemasonry so that I may be able to travel freely, work, earn workman's wages and to contribute to the relief of worthy unfortunates. So why would you need freemasonry to accomplish these goals ? the bible is not a book which teaches mathematics, but reveals God to us, and his will. |
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Post by corab on Jun 6, 2008 11:29:49 GMT
Is it just me or has Angelo's style of writing just changed radically?  No. Salvation is a religious proposition. My faith teaches me that my salvation comes from my faith in Christ. Masonry is completely silent on this issue as it is a religious concept. Next question? yep. are you shure ? how about this ? The Masonic Lodge claims to be a fraternal organization and denies that Freemasonry is a religion. Yet, the Masonic Lodge teaches a plan of salvation which does not require faith in Jesus Christ. As a Master Mason, you are in a position to know that this is true on a firsthand basis. You have participated in Masonic rituals which teach salvation without Jesus and you have probably watched as others have been conducted through the rituals. What does the ritual teach about salvation? In the Entered Apprentice Degree, the Worshipful Master asks, "What covering has a Lodge?" The Senior Warden answers: A clouded canopy or star-decked heavens, where all good Masons hope at last to arrive. . . During the Master Mason Degree, the Worshipful Master asks, "What is meant by the three steps usually delineated on the Master's Carpet?" The following answer is given by the Senior Warden: . . .as Fellow Crafts, we should apply our knowledge to the discharge of our respective duties to God, our neighbors, and ourselves; so that, in Age, as Master Masons, we may enjoy the happy reflections consequent on a well-spent life, and die in the hope of a glorious immortality. When you portrayed Hiram Abiff, the Worshipful Master offered a prayer just before you (as Hiram Abiff) were "raised" from the dead. His prayer ended with these words: Yet, O Lord! have compassion on the children of Thy creation; administer them comfort in time of trouble, and save them with an everlasting salvation. Amen. At the close of the Legend of the Third Degree. The Senior Warden said: Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. The following explanation of the meaning of the Legend of the Third Degree is found on page 96 of Albert Mackey’s Manual of the Lodge: It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness. . .to teach the immortality of the soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . .and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads us to the honorable and virtuous maturity, and that the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss. . . .the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation. Masonry teaches that Master Masons, as a group, may die in the hope of a glorious immortality, that they represent those raised from the grave of iniquity and that they have been redeemed from the death of sin. Masonry is teaching that Master Masons have salvation! |
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Post by corab on Jun 6, 2008 11:30:44 GMT
But of course you do. It's a simple matter of prioritising, of chosing what to respond to and in how much detail. You choose conflict, confrontation. You choose to spend time searching unreliable sources and quoting from them. You choose to spend time citing scripture to us. You say you are here to testify your faith -- I doubt that. All you have shown us so far is a desire to off-load your internal conflict onto some scapegoat under the guise of testifying your faith. You're not testifying your faith -- you're testifying your fear, your anger, your inability to face up to the truth you know to be within you. You don't have to live your life like this. You choose to. keep on going.... Perhaps I will -- when you let Angelo speak for himself again. The deceit does not work. The great deceiver fails to convince. |
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;D
Oct 25, 2024 19:03:35 GMT
