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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 12:03:44 GMT
One single versicle , if wrong understood, can lead to a wrong understanding of the scripture. There must be a consense with other parts of the bible.
You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside28 the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, 4:23 to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 4:24 and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image29 – in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.30
5:17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away32 – look, what is new33 has come!34 5:18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. 5:19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us35 the message of reconciliation.
this would contradict what the apostel paul said.
have you not read the chapter completely, with the fall of the adam and eve, and as consequence, all descendents ?
did i say that i disagree ? but Jesus said also :
only one is perfect : the heavenly father.
no, god said, we should be holy, not that we are holy. did you get this ?
no , absolutely not. have i said that ?
it was not, until the fall of adam and eve.
the good is God, in us, not we by ourself.
so to who did the apostel paul say that ? to born again christians, which had the forgiveness of christ. So they were rightful because of god's mercy, not because they had a inherent good human nature. they were transformed through the power of god, through the holy spirit. so it was God's work, that transformed them , to new creatures.
and i do not consider the talmud the word of god. it does not make part of the bible. so it can claim, whatever it wants. it has no authority for me.
exactly. but before so, it has to be born of god. correct.
absolutely. don't you see that you miss the point ?
Not one is called "evil." They sure are blessed though!
exactly. the good fruits are the ones, that follow God, believe in Jesus Christ, follow him, and hold his commands. The bad ones , are the sinners, the ones, that reject God, and his son Jesus Christ, and go their own ways.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 12:19:07 GMT
elshamah, You can post multiple links if you like. I have read all of them. And frankly, I simply cannot respond to the inaccuracies of each and every one. Time simply will not permit. What I will say is that I am bothered that you continue to just post the opinions of others with no real knowledge of what they are talking about. well, i learn and know through their writings and enlightenings. Or do you want to assert, all these are total missinformed, liers, and nothing is true ? and you think i should believe that ? Do you know that a good part of the evangelical church is clearly AGAINST freemasonry, with substantial reasons ? If Jesus would live today, do you honestly think, he would accept to be a freemason ? sorry, but i disagree with you. i do perfectly understand all the homepages , i link to, say and explain. if you and others simply deny the facts, than what else would you expect from me ? well, you continue to assert i do not understand the things, written in the pages, i link to. Why do you think they are so difficult to be understood , so that , as a person with normal, average intelligence should not be able to understand them ? just because i never participated as a freemason at any gathering ? . So why do you not make that just together with other brothers of your local church, which btw. share your same faith in jesus christ ? the bible says : dark and white, should not walk together. you freely accept to walk together with non christians. why ? is it Gods will to do so ? i am not here to judge you. Who sees your heart, is only God. It is a question, might you want to answer to yourself. So why should i give you more credibility, than all christians, that stand united against freemasonry, in reason of all the things, shown in the homepages, i linked to ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 12:24:16 GMT
Elshmah, every single one of the links you have posted in the course of the topic are well known for containing lies and disinformation. if you wish to be seen as credible or as having any cred9ibility or truth in your arguments you will need to do some research on sites and in books that do not speak falsehoods. Your mind is being polluted by the evil that men do in lying and deceiving their fellow man, EMFJ is well known as a site containing malicious and false information, as do most of the other links you posted. Remember, you may be new to these arguments and falsehoods, most of us have seen them for years and know them for the false words they carry. There is a term in computing GIGO, means garbage in, garbage out - you are caught in this cycle, you are polluting your mind with garbage and falsehoods spread by those with hate in their heart for something they cannot and will not understand, subsequently most of what you are repeating is 'garbage out' Do the writings of Albert Pike, for instance, not talk for themself ? if freemasonry does not agree with him, why has that not been made clear officially ? does his book not receive general acceptance within freemasonry ? |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 6, 2008 12:40:41 GMT
If Jesus would live today, do you honestly think, he would accept to be a freemason? Perhaps something positive may arise from this wilfully ignorant and fixated harangue. We read: How did someone become an Essene? A man who wanted to join the order had to give them everything he owned. He had to make a promise, called a “terrible oath”, in which he swore to be loyal to the brethren and keep the doctrines of the order secret. Excommunication was the punishment for breaking the oath. The novice Essene was given three articles: a pickax, an apron, and a white garment. Everything else in the order was common property. After one year of probation, during which he was carefully observed, he could be promoted to the next level. Another two years of successful tests would entitle the successful candidate to full membership in the Essene brotherhood. At this point he would be permitted to join other members for the common meals. |
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Post by droche on Jun 6, 2008 12:52:51 GMT
i have highlightened what clearly is a plan of salvation : By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . so it's not by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but by its legende and all its ritual. That's clearly a plan of salvation, a alternative way. And, once more, I will tell you, as a Mason of 26 years with a reputation of having an excellent knowledge of Masonic ritual, that nowhere in Masonic ritual or legend is it expressly or implicitly written or taught that Masons, simply by virtue of being Masons, are redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of salvation, or in any way "saved." To believe so is just plain wrong. As others have stated, you are merely regurgitating what you have read from sources that have for decades or even centuries known to be outright innaccurate and false. You bring nothing new to the table. You also mentioned Albert Pike (again) and asked does not his book receive general acceptance in Freemasonry. How many times do you have to be told? There are some things he wrote that are accepted and some that are not. His book or any of his writings cannot be assessed as a whole. |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 6, 2008 13:03:40 GMT
I understand that the true translation of the occupation of Jesus means "builder" or "mason" and not "carpenter."
I wonder what inspired this clear inaccuracy? : In the Gospels, Jesus is called a tekton, a Greek word that meant not merely a carpenter skilled in making cabinets or furniture but a designer, construction engineer, or architect. A tekton could build a house, construct a bridge, or design a temple. |
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Post by droche on Jun 6, 2008 13:08:03 GMT
If Jesus were alive today, would he accept to be a Freemason?
I was waiting for that. So many people today justify their positions on various matters by stating that Jesus would or would not do that. Recently a pub opened in the city in which I live and one of the patrons said that Jesus would have gone there. A few years ago, someone defending the use of SUV's said that if Jesus were alive today, he would have driven around in a SUV.
Not only do I think that such statements border on blasphemy by imputing things to Jesus to advance one's own agenda, but whether or not Jesus would have done this or that is, many times irrelevant.
I don't know if Jesus would or would not have wanted to become a Freemason, but so what if he didn't? I never had any interest in joining the church choir. That does not mean I am against church choirs. I never had any interest in joining the drama club when I went to school. That does not mean I am against drama or drama clubs. You get the idea.
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 6, 2008 14:26:14 GMT
elshamah,
I've answered each of your questions as honestly and as forthrightly as I know how. You've received answers, repeatedly, that show that the errors you are making are very easy to identify:
1. Pike was not and is not an authoritative speaker for Freemasonry. As you have seen on this very thread, the religious beliefs held by those within Freemasonry are VERY diverse. If we are a religion, we are a very schizophrenic religion!
2. You keep confusing the fact that Masonry uses religion (whatever it may be to you) to give you the basis for universal agreement. (i.e. do unto others, help the poor and defenseless, etc.).
As an example, I have traveled to countries which are communist. I am NOT a communist. However, when I have traveled to those countries I have met with people who are. We don't discuss communism. We meet on a very basic, understood level of treating each other as PEOPLE and with respect. We stay away from discussion that would prevent us from doing so (politics, world events, etc.) and focus on our business at hand (which may be either business related, or charity work). Does my presence in that country mean I'm a communist? No. Does my mere presence there mean that I hate MY country? Obviously not.
3. I don't know if you ever extended me the same courtesy I did you and read my papers, but you seem to still be posting links containing the Taxil hoax. This means that you have either not been interested in understanding, after repeated warnings of bearing false witness, how that information is known to be a hoas; or WORSE, you know and are willing to lie and bear false witness in the interest of making your case. This is clearly a sin.
Now, as purely honest answers have not satisfied you, I'll ask you some questions. As you are here only to testify to your faith, I'm sure you will be happy to answer them. (As you do, keep in mind that I am ALSO an evangelical Christian):
1. Are you a Christian?
2. Do Christians love others unconditionally? What would cause a
Christian to NOT love another?
Please respond in your own words. When you asked questions of us, we were diligent enough to answers for ourselves and not post links to the thoughts of others.
Thank you in advance for sharing your faith through these questions.
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Post by leonardo on Jun 6, 2008 14:55:02 GMT
Another question is: Is God's love unconditional?
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Post by leonardo on Jun 6, 2008 15:01:39 GMT
Yes, and the reason is (in my view) many within FM (and, indeed, outside) are naturally curious about such things: Freemasonry and religion, and all it encompasses, make for an interesting discussion, it has a way of being exciting and informative all at the same time. Like Bro. Cora, I am learning much from this thread.  |
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Post by leonardo on Jun 6, 2008 15:07:39 GMT
We read: In the Gospels, Jesus is called a tekton, a Greek word that meant not merely a carpenter skilled in making cabinets or furniture but a designer, construction engineer, or architect. A tekton could build a house, construct a bridge, or design a temple. And build other builders too?  Isn't that what Freemasonry does? This link makes an interesting read. |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 6, 2008 15:18:36 GMT
Another question is: Is God's love unconditional? No, it can not be. It would mean that the murderer is accepted as is the hero. But, if repentance is genuine that is a different matter. It does not mean there is no love, but there must be conditions or there are no limits. Threads on this subject always get a lot of attention, because we all wonder what is God, why is God. What if God was one of us. I always say Freemasonry is not a Religion, but it does come close to being a support for those who have not found stability in the Church. Let me give you a couple of my old Stories. I have attended my Local Church on many occasions although I am not a regular visitor. Midnight Mass at Christmas I enjoy, I have a large family so a number of Weddings , Christenings and funerals. I have never seen my Local Clergy near my house or on the streets of the town where I live. If any would knock on my door they would be most welcome, we have lived in our Town for 30 years, never had a visit. We get Father Christmas in a Sleigh every year collecting for Children's Charities, but no Clergy. About 5 years ago one of my Grandchildren was Christened, as I looked over across the Church I notice the stain glass window and it has Masonic signs in a couple of the panels. I asked about the window after the service and the Vicar cut me dead and said, we don't talk about that. I made some enquiries and discovered that a local family had paid for the window to be replaced after the last war because it was damaged and they had lost their son, fighting in the War. But because the Father was a Freemason this Godly man running the Church does not want to talk about it. I wonder if Jesus would approve of his conduct ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 15:26:31 GMT
and what makes you believe such a nonsense ? Oh, don't be so hard on yourself and start acting all humble like. You are very convincing. You provided the key up front. You are adversarial. Satan means "adversary." You are then, by your own use of your words, a Satanist. Satan is the dark lord. As long as you are so inclined, you value such things and hence are in deed a worshiper of darkness. You convinced me, hence the prayers. P jesus was also a adversary at his time against the hipocrasy of the leading members of the judaish religion, namely the pharisaers. So was he also a satanist ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 15:32:51 GMT
I shared my reason as you requested. Explaining my response was not offered. the bible is not a book which teaches mathematics, but reveals God to us, and his will. You avoid the question with a premise that is not sound. There are numerous examples throughout the Bible that require an understanding of math and do indeed convey mathematical concepts. Tithing is one such example. Building G-d ordered things is a second. The value os Pi is such another. Should you know the Bible, these become obvious. Should you not know the value of Pi as conveyed by the Holy Book, then you would not see any of this. But you say you know the Bible so: Where is the value of Pi as stated by the math conveyed in the Holy Bible? Hint - it shows up in two locations, at least. P well, i do not claim to know everything of the bible. So since you came up with this pi thing, if you want, you can explain, what you want to say. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 15:35:41 GMT
If Jesus would live today, do you honestly think, he would accept to be a freemason? Perhaps something positive may arise from this wilfully ignorant and fixated harangue. We read: How did someone become an Essene? A man who wanted to join the order had to give them everything he owned. He had to make a promise, called a “terrible oath”, in which he swore to be loyal to the brethren and keep the doctrines of the order secret. Excommunication was the punishment for breaking the oath. The novice Essene was given three articles: a pickax, an apron, and a white garment. Everything else in the order was common property. After one year of probation, during which he was carefully observed, he could be promoted to the next level. Another two years of successful tests would entitle the successful candidate to full membership in the Essene brotherhood. At this point he would be permitted to join other members for the common meals. what does Jesus have to do with the Essenes ? |
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Post by corab on Jun 6, 2008 15:38:50 GMT
does his book not receive general acceptance within freemasonry ? No. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 15:42:06 GMT
my understanding of the bible goes with the mainstream doctrine of the evangelical and protestant church. So i do see the facts objectively, as the bible portrays them, and we can observe, looking around us. i am realistic, nothing more. Believe whatever you want. You are free to do so. But i do not agree with you. Might your freemason brother, that says that is christian, agree with me. If not, he is heretic. have i changed something ? i guess, what happens, is , that you deny the veracity of several passages in the bible, that clearly state, that all human kind is under sin. Read Romans, chapter 3. The bad ones , are the sinners, the ones, that reject God, and his son Jesus Christ, and go their own ways. You have once again convinced me of your darkness. P[/quote] no problem with me, you to think so.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 15:49:51 GMT
elshamah, I've answered each of your questions as honestly and as forthrightly as I know how. You've received answers, repeatedly, that show that the errors you are making are very easy to identify: 1. Pike was not and is not an authoritative speaker for Freemasonry. As you have seen on this very thread, the religious beliefs held by those within Freemasonry are VERY diverse. If we are a religion, we are a very schizophrenic religion! 2. You keep confusing the fact that Masonry uses religion (whatever it may be to you) to give you the basis for universal agreement. (i.e. do unto others, help the poor and defenseless, etc.). As an example, I have traveled to countries which are communist. I am NOT a communist. However, when I have traveled to those countries I have met with people who are. We don't discuss communism. We meet on a very basic, understood level of treating each other as PEOPLE and with respect. We stay away from discussion that would prevent us from doing so (politics, world events, etc.) and focus on our business at hand (which may be either business related, or charity work). Does my presence in that country mean I'm a communist? No. Does my mere presence there mean that I hate MY country? Obviously not. 3. I don't know if you ever extended me the same courtesy I did you and read my papers, but you seem to still be posting links containing the Taxil hoax. This means that you have either not been interested in understanding, after repeated warnings of bearing false witness, how that information is known to be a hoas; or WORSE, you know and are willing to lie and bear false witness in the interest of making your case. This is clearly a sin. Now, as purely honest answers have not satisfied you, I'll ask you some questions. As you are here only to testify to your faith, I'm sure you will be happy to answer them. (As you do, keep in mind that I am ALSO an evangelical Christian): 1. Are you a Christian? 2. Do Christians love others unconditionally? What would cause a Christian to NOT love another? Please respond in your own words. When you asked questions of us, we were diligent enough to answers for ourselves and not post links to the thoughts of others. Thank you in advance for sharing your faith through these questions. marco polo why should i answer your question, if you do not answer mine ? why should i believe you, and not respected ex-masons, that draw a clear and transparent picture about what freemasonry is all about, and have given trust worthy testimony and description about it ? why shoul i not go with a vast number of churches, which do condemn freemasonry, with rocksolid arguments ? you have not answered my questions : why have you decided, as a christian, that you say, you are, to have close relationship and brotherhood with people that are not ? since the bible says light should not mix with darkness ? Does your local church not offer you the opportunity to do good to other people , in words, and acts ? |
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Post by leonardo on Jun 6, 2008 16:17:05 GMT
This link makes an interesting read. Magnificent! Thank you |
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Post by maximus on Jun 6, 2008 16:30:40 GMT
Might your freemason brother, that says that is christian, agree with me. If not, he is heretic. So now we come to the crux of the matter. Heresy. Let us define heresy. From Wikipedia: The word "heresy" comes from the Greek áἵñåóéò, hairesis (from áἱñÝïìáé, haireomai, "choose"), which means either a choice of beliefs or a faction of believers. It was given wide currency by Irenaeus in his tract Contra Haereses (Against Heresies) to describe and discredit his opponents in the early Christian Church. He described his own position as orthodox (from ortho- "right" + doxa "belief") and his position eventually evolved into the position of the early Christian Church. Used in this way, the term "heresy" has no purely objective meaning: the category exists only from the point of view of speakers within a group that has previously agreed about what counts as "orthodox". Any nonconformist view within any field may be perceived as "heretical" by others within that field who are convinced that their view is "orthodox"; in the sciences this extension is made tongue-in-cheek.Heretics usually do not define their own beliefs as heretical. Heresy is a value judgment and the expression of a view from within an established belief system. For instance, Roman Catholics held Protestantism as a heresy while some non-Catholics considered Catholicism the "Great Apostasy." For a heresy to exist there must be an authoritative system of dogma designated as orthodox, such as those proposed by Catholicism. The term orthodox is used in Eastern Orthodoxy, some Protestant churches, in Islam, some Jewish denominations, and to a lesser extent in other religions. Variance from orthodox Marxism-Leninism is described as "right" or "left deviationism." The Church of Scientology uses the term "squirreling" to refer to unauthorized alterations of its teachings or methods. So, any deviation from an existing orthodox view can be considered a heresy. From the same source, regarding Christian heresy: In Christianity, heresy is a "theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative." So, once again, we see that heresy is defined by the group, and anyone at variance with that group mentality is considered to be heretical. During the darkness of the middle ages, when Church orthodoxy was enforced by the State, we saw hundreds of thousands put to torture and execution (if unrepentant) for this highly charged concept. Now, on this very forum, we see a brother standing accused of this very charge: Heresy! The Masonic principle of Freedom of Religion seems to be under assult, by those in the name of religion itself. What arrogance! What huburis! Angelo, what is to be done? How would you deal with a heretic in the light of the teachings of Christ? What does Jesus himself have to say about heresy, and heretics? Are they to be "put to the question?" If unrepentant, are they to be put to the Auto de Fe? |
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