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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 6, 2008 17:58:05 GMT
thevoiceofreason, as Freemasonry is open to followers of different religions why would you, as someone who claims to be a fellow Mason, try to dissuade Christians from their beliefs? I am curious too as to what your GL/Obedience is? I believe that I have already answered this question. In a lodge room I have no issue working with Brothers of the Christian and other man made "faiths." BUT as Freemason, we are also to stand up to tyranny and the Jesus myth is leading to great tryanny in the USA. This once beautiful country based on Deist principles of reason and logic is being erroded from within by rabid superstitious nonsense. I belong to a number of GL's actually. My primary work is done with The National Sovereign Sanctuary —The Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraïm. Why do you ask? www.godvsthebible.com |
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 6, 2008 18:01:11 GMT
I am finding the whole Angelo angle of this thread to be quite boring. Albert Pike this (I love Albert Pike BTW I have a large framed photo of him above my mantle) Jesus is the only way to salvation, Satan this . Blah, blah, blah. Satan isn't real either. I deny him too. Would Jesus be a Mason? There are plenty of guys in Mexico named Jesus, I suppose some of them may be Masons. Even Shriners!  www.godvsthebible.com |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 6, 2008 18:19:24 GMT
elshamah,
I will, again, answer your question. I will then thank you for doing the same.
I have chosen a brotherhood with men who are not Christians, that is correct. I'm not sure what is controversial, or the least bit un-christian about that. In fact, I find it to be much MORE Christ-like to associate with others who do not believe as I do. Mixing light with darkness? You are WAY off base with the use of that scripture. I am certainly not "yoking" myself to my fellow Masons. Jesus used the example of the Good Samaritan. Surely you understand that a Samaritan was the LAST person the average Jew wanted to deal with. Talk about darkness and light, they didn't even want to SPEAK to a Samaritan. But Jesus held the Samaritan up as an example of those doing good works. Again, do I help repair the roofs of people who cannot afford to keep their homes from being condemned with another Mason who may be Jewish? Yes I do. Might I drive a burned child to one of our FREE Masonic burn centers along with a Mason who might be Muslim? Yep, no problem.
Are these opportunities in my church? Yes, they are, and I am involved with them. Unfortunately, I have found that more often than not, my evangelical church is much more concerned with meeting the needs of those who attend our church than those who do not. My denomination has been very, very slow to respond to the needs of those suffering from AIDS due to the "homosexual issue". As an example, there is a "soup kitchen" that is run by a non-profit, non-religious organization. They are the most active and I have worked with them. I find no conflict in this as I find no conflict with doing these acts through Masonry.. the organizations are not mutually exclusive.
(As a side question, what have you done this week either within your church or outside of it to help the widow, the orphan, or those in jail?)
As to why you should trust me over those "respected" (respected as in they continue to quote things like the Taxil Hoax to sell books?) over me? I don't expect you to believe me over anyone else. Frankly, you're in no position to make that judgment as you have absolutely no experience whatsoever. I believe you would feel the same way if I began to tell you why Brazil was a horrible place with a crooked government, quoting multiple anti-Brazilian websites. I wouldn't be particularly credible now, would I? Would you take me seriously if I tried to convince you about what a horrible place Brazil was, with you living there and I having never been there?
Again, please answer my questions. At this point I think your statement that you are here to testify to your faith is dubious at best, bordering on dishonesty. You are here to convince Masons that Masonry is Satanic, and you lack any credibility to do so.
So, Please.. the questions:
1. Are you a Christian?
2. Do you believe that Christians are to love unconditionally? Is it true that he who does not love does not know Christ?
OK, I have now COMPLETELY answered EVERY question you have posed me.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 21:00:19 GMT
jesus was also a adversary at his time against the hipocrasy of the leading members of the judaish religion, namely the pharisaers. So was he also a satanist ? I thank you very much for the wonderful parallel. Yes -- in the eyes of what you call "pharisaers" he indeed was. They were of course filled with hypocrisy so they could not come to any other conclusion. They held themselves out as leaders of a faith (much like you have so given the impression that you do) and Jesus showed them to be sin-filled. Your eyes see Freemasons the same way, much like Jesus was seen in the hypocritical and adversarial eyes of the "pharisaers" you have so labeled. The parallel is well put. Thank you for pointing this out. BTW - You claim that you are evil. I do not want to believe this but you are very convincing, almost stubbornly so. Why should a person who claims to be evil be believed in any way? P well, my human nature is sinful as everybodies. i do not consider me better, or worse, than anyone else. however, i am a new creature in christ, and his justice has been attributed to me. I am a spiritually born again, new creature in Christ. And i have , as all children of god do have, authority in jesus name to preach the gospel, and to testify my faith. I do it on the internet just virtually , but i do it as well with my life. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 21:04:51 GMT
Now, on this very forum, we see a brother standing accused of this very charge: Heresy! might you be more objective, and calm down a little bit. I have said , if your freemason brother does not agree, yes, with orthodox belief of the church, he is member of, than, and the question about if men is in is inherent nature good , or evil, is a very fundamental question, than he does take a heretic position. I have not said , he has. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 6, 2008 21:17:00 GMT
well, i do not claim to know everything of the bible. So since you came up with this pi thing, if you want, you can explain, what you want to say. Thanks for asking! The Bible says in... 1 Kings 7:23 2 Chronicles 4:2 ...that Pi is equal to 3. This number 3 is arrived at by what is Written. [From: C=2*Pi*R=3*D; When C=30 and D=10, Pi=3] We know that Pi is greater than 3. This is a indisputable fact that the Bible numbers conflict with -- unless one wants to dismiss this fact and say that 3 is close enough or that these dimensions are rounded or that it is indeed 3 as the Bible implies and that we should not get distracted by facts that G-d has Written in the World that G-d created. All of which place the Bible as suspect because you are now dismissing or discounting aspects of what is Written by man or G-d. What it means? That the Bible is merely the start of knowledge, not the end. To stop at the Bible in seeking answers would, like the case of Pi, leave us short in what we need to know. i absolutely disagree. I believe, the bible is the word of god, and complete. No further teachings or revelations needed. All , God wanted to say to us, he said through his word, the bible. The bible is enough. As 2.Tim.3.16 says : Every scripture23 is inspired by God24 and useful for teaching, for reproof,25 for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God26 may be capable27 and equipped for every good work.i dont think so. if you think the mentioned discrepancy is relevant for you, then go ahead, and do not trust the bible. for me it is irrelevant. The bible is not a book to teach exact mathematics. there are enough other reasons, to believe, the bible is from god inspired. Very strong facts do make me believe so : www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1348.htmi have not even come to talk about how wonderful blessings god has prepared for his children..... and you do not seem to know. your blabbering, i am in darkness, annoys me. honestly. can't you change a littlebit ,and get more reasonable ? you have no reason, to say that. |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 6, 2008 21:38:28 GMT
Be careful. This puts you outside the beliefs of evangelical Christianity. While it may just be a poor choice of words on your part, it does make a theological difference.
IF you believe we as humans are sinful by nature, then you must also believe in baptism of infants, since to die in that sinful state would damn them. (Which we as evangelicals do NOT believe).
I think what you actually mean (and what evangelical Christianity teaches) is that we have a propensity to sin. If I am damned, it will be because of the sins *I* have committed. ("All like sheep have GONE astray" (not were born astray), All have sinned", "None is righteous, no not one", etc.)
You do not, however, have the ability or the authority to judge the salvation of others, which you have continued to do, nor have you been authorized to bear false witness in your quest to convince others of their need for salvation. Remember, the gospel is yours to share, but it is not yours. Jesus was never belligerent and never browbeat anyone into salvation.
If you're true interest is to reach others with Jesus message of hope, I would HIGHLY recommend you go on a "red letter" quest. Spend some time reading how Jesus himself engaged those in need, how he treated them. Would he carry a sign that says "God hates fags!" or would you find him in an AIDS hospice comforting those we have rejected? As I once told a friend "I don't know if Jesus would be in the bar.. but I know he would be in the gutter with the drunks on skid row."
Just something to think about.
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Post by corab on Jun 6, 2008 21:42:41 GMT
Hi Angelo,
16 pages into this very fascinating and illuminating thread I still cannot fathom what you are getting out of this.
I understand you are here to testify your faith. What I do not understand is the way you choose to do it and why of all things you have chosen to testify among freemasons. What do you hope to achieve by it?
Come to think of it: what does that actually mean to you, testifying your faith? How is it important to you, and what factors have led you to choose this manner of testifying, and this forum?
How does seeking conflict enhance the experience of testifying your faith?
This forum is a community of free-thinking individuals who experience no conflict between their faith or other expression of spirituality and their craft. What is your objective in engaging us in this manner?
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 6, 2008 21:47:09 GMT
Great point, Cora. And if the point is testifying to his faith, why doesn't he answer my questions as to his faith? We've certainly put together 16 pages answering his!  |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 6, 2008 22:03:32 GMT
Perhaps something positive may arise from this wilfully ignorant and fixated harangue. We read: How did someone become an Essene? A man who wanted to join the order had to give them everything he owned. He had to make a promise, called a “terrible oath”, in which he swore to be loyal to the brethren and keep the doctrines of the order secret. Excommunication was the punishment for breaking the oath. The novice Essene was given three articles: a pickax, an apron, and a white garment. Everything else in the order was common property. After one year of probation, during which he was carefully observed, he could be promoted to the next level. Another two years of successful tests would entitle the successful candidate to full membership in the Essene brotherhood. At this point he would be permitted to join other members for the common meals.
what does Jesus have to do with the Essenes?You, whose name might more accurately be Legion, asked: If Jesus would live today, do you honestly think, he would accept to be a freemason? Earlier in the thread, we read: By the way, Jesus was NOT a Christian. Seems He might have been an Essene. And, from the same link as that above: Many of the Essene writings, especially the Manual of Discipline, contain statements, which are strikingly similar to the teachings of Jesus and early Christianity. This has led to speculation that Christianity may have had its beginnings with the Essene movement. Some even suggest that Jesus and John the Baptist were Essenes, or at least well acquainted with their teaching. |
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 6, 2008 22:07:13 GMT
A serious question for the Christians. IN what version of Jesus do you choose to believe? A.) The synoptic Jesus who is the SON of God. Who sits at the right hand of God and serves him as his father. B.) The Trinitarian Jesus who IS God in human form who sacrificed himself to himself and asked himself why he forsake himself? C.) The Jesus of Revelations who comes to destroy mankind? S&F, Aaron www.godvsthebible.com |
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Post by sid on Jun 6, 2008 22:14:22 GMT
A serious question for the Christians. IN what version of Jesus do you choose to believe? A.) The synoptic Jesus who is the SON of God. Who sits at the right hand of God and serves him as his father. B.) The Trinitarian Jesus who IS God in human form who sacrificed himself to himself and asked himself why he forsake himself? C.) The Jesus of Revelations who comes to destroy mankind? S&F, Aaron www.godvsthebible.com Is there not also the Jesus who became the Christ? |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 6, 2008 22:40:08 GMT
Hi Angelo, 16 pages into this very fascinating and illuminating thread I still cannot fathom what you are getting out of this. I understand you are here to testify your faith. What I do not understand is the way you choose to do it and why of all things you have chosen to testify among freemasons. What do you hope to achieve by it? I hope there is no objection , but I would like to make some points, as i think this is very important. In order to have a basis upon which to promulgate a stand, it is so much easier if somebody else is the demon. I am a good person because I can demonstrate to others you are a bad person. I am not saying Angelo is in this mould, but if you look round the Internet and forget your a Freemason, you will see all kinds of minority groups being demonized. There will be many who read these pages and take them at face value. Catholicism gets a rough time at the hands of the fundy movement. We have seen here where Angelo has been given perfectly valid answers to sites he thought were genuine, he will find it hard to admit he has been misled, but give it time it will sink in. The truth is the truth and no man can change that. Testifying your Faith to the evangelist is like breathing, you just got to do it. Its a bit like running a Masonic forum, why the hell we do it is an absolute mystery. So I would suspect that Angelo has been fed a great deal of pre set argument / propaganda against Freemasonry. He will not let go of that easily. Because to him it all made perfect sense last week. Its a bit like coming face to face with an man you have been told is a 'terrorist' and finding he works in a Macdonalds, has 3 kids a wife and a Mortgage just like you. And worst of all he is a Christian. Does volunteer work and gives blood regularly. |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 6, 2008 22:59:54 GMT
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Post by maximus on Jun 6, 2008 23:06:38 GMT
Good points Bill. We'll keep going as long as Angelo wishes to, and perhaps eventually the light bulb my come on. ;D
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 6, 2008 23:24:04 GMT
In some part however some of the websites that Angelo is promoting are correct. I know in my case Freemasonry was absolutley the key catalyst in leading me away from faith. For that I will always be greatful. www.godvsthebible.com |
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Post by keith on Jun 6, 2008 23:25:37 GMT
I see that "thevoiceofreason" says in one of his posts "I belong to a number of GL's actually. My primary work is done with The National Sovereign Sanctuary —The Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraïm. Why do you ask?" Oh dear! This reminds me of our old mate Rui Gabirro/Mangovo Ngoyo who came from Cabinda, pushed Sovereign Santuary for all his worth and started the "Regular Grand Lodge of England/Masonic High Council". However if you look at www.masonicinfo.com and the page on the Regular Grand Lodge of England, you'll learn a lot more about him although his name has now disappeared from the RGLE website. A google search for Mr Ngoyo is quite intriguing too as is one under our Rui! |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 6, 2008 23:30:26 GMT
Its taken 16 minutes but eventually I managed to say that. cognitive dissonance! - cognitive dissonance! - cognitive dissonance! Does this mean I am smarter than I think I am. |
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Post by alchymicalmason on Jun 6, 2008 23:54:04 GMT
what makes you think YOU are not mind controlled ? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha hahahhahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahhahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 6, 2008 23:54:55 GMT
elshamah,
Again, please answer the following. I will take your unwillingness to answer as your NOT being a Christian, as the Bible clearly states in Luke 9:26
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."
1. Are you a Christian?
2. Do you believe that Christians are to love unconditionally? Is it true that he who does not love does not know Christ?
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