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Post by elshamah on Jun 10, 2008 21:47:49 GMT
However, i don't think i have to, since the testimony of ex masons is trust worthy for me. Have you ever actually met any of these ex masons you put such great trust in? Oh wait. You've got me on ignore. How silly of me. Would anyone else like to carry my point? i have never met one personally, but i have read a book from someone, that was a freemason. and it was very enlightening. but there are testimonies also on the internet of ex freemasons : www.illuminati-news.com/2007/0720a.htmwww.murderingmasons.co.uk/might you also explain this one : www.preachtheword.com/sermon/cults15.shtmlFreemasonry goes as far, in its high echelons, as actually calling Lucifer 'God'. Let me prove it to you. Here is Albert Pike again, and he says in his writing 'Instructions in the 23rd Supreme Council of the World', July 14th 1889: 'Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay', which is a Hebrew name for God, 'is also God. The true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay. But Lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil'. Manly Hall, and this is his book 'The Lost Keys of Freemasonry', who himself was a 33rd Degree Freemason up there at the top, says: 'When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy'. of course, you can come again and say : oh, that is not representative. in the final, i ask, what sake is then representative  |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 10, 2008 22:00:50 GMT
It's fun as a mental exercise. I agree. It also shows brings out the best in us. Where else could someone accuse another group of worshiping satan and get 28 pages of patient discourse from them? marco polo did i accuse you to worship satan ? |
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 10, 2008 22:02:26 GMT
Oh jeez more Satan and Albert Pike. Ho hum. At least Albert Pike was at one time real, Satan is another made up myth. www.godvsthebible.com |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 10, 2008 22:09:03 GMT
I agree, brethren, but let's keep in mind. Many of those who use the quotes of these "former Masons" are much less worried about the truth then they are about validating their pre-conceived stereotypes and "winning the argument". You can see on this very thread the exchange has gone something like this: 1. Make a claim against freemasonry using a source. 2. The claim is proven false, or the source as a hoax. 3. Change to a different source and make the same (or similar claim). 4. The claim is proven false, or the source of a hoax. 5. Repeat #3 in an infinite loop. You'll notice there is no room for realizing that you are, in fact, wrong.. and spreading lies.. just keep accusing using other sources. If you end up at the bottom of the barrel, feel free to use internet sites which claim that UFO's are actually a zionist/illuminati/masonic conspiracy to control the world. Don't let little things like the fact that the author admitted they were a hoax stop you. The York Rite structure formed in the 1800's influenced the US Seal created in the 1700's? Sure, no problem. George W. Bush making a "satanic hand signal!" OK, why not. Throw in some non-Masons? Hmm. Well, let's just say that they aren't "mason" masons, but skull and bones. Not related? Sure, they are all part of the secret illuminati/jewish/masonic/alien/communist plot to overtake the world. Man, somebody needs to bring me up to speed on all the world-controlling stuff. I missed a couple of meetings, but I thought we were still doing the "free hospitals for sick kids" thing.  And, after 27 pages of posts. We continue the cycle above. No admission of wrongdoing. No apologies for spreading lies or bearing false witness. Great witness. VERY Christ-like, brother. marco polo do you agree that " The god of the OT by his own account is wrathful, vengeful, jealous, causes mass slaughters of humans and animals, and visits evil upon his various enemies and their offspring " as your brother Russell Holland claims ? it's remarkable, that you bother more with my posts against freemasonry, than with your Brother Russell Hollands blaspheme posts against the God, you claim , to believe in. Who or what is more important for you : to defend the God of the bible, which you claim to believe in, or to defend freemasonry ? |
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Post by hollandr on Jun 10, 2008 22:17:54 GMT
>your Brother Russell Hollands blaspheme posts against the God,
Angelo
Do you not like a god who claims "vengeance is mine" and "I am a jealous god" and slaughters the first born humans and animals of egypt?
Of course the way out of the theological problem is to examine St Paul more closely when he explains that there are gods many and lords many both in heaven and in earth
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 10, 2008 22:30:39 GMT
Have you ever actually met any of these ex masons you put such great trust in? Oh wait. You've got me on ignore. How silly of me. Would anyone else like to carry my point? i have never met one personally, but i have read a book from someone, that was a freemason. and it was very enlightening. but there are testimonies also on the internet of ex freemasons : www.illuminati-news.com/2007/0720a.htmwww.murderingmasons.co.uk/might you also explain this one : www.preachtheword.com/sermon/cults15.shtmlFreemasonry goes as far, in its high echelons, as actually calling Lucifer 'God'. Let me prove it to you. Here is Albert Pike again, and he says in his writing 'Instructions in the 23rd Supreme Council of the World', July 14th 1889: 'Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay', which is a Hebrew name for God, 'is also God. The true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay. But Lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil'. Manly Hall, and this is his book 'The Lost Keys of Freemasonry', who himself was a 33rd Degree Freemason up there at the top, says: 'When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy'. of course, you can come again and say : oh, that is not representative. in the final, i ask, what sake is then representative This is EXACTLY the Taxil Hoax that I explained earlier. It has been admitted as a hoax by the author.. retracted by the publisher.. and debunked years ago. Have you been reading the previous posts?!?!? Your other two sources are "illuminati-news.com" and "murderingmasons.co.uk" Come on now. Seriously? |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 10, 2008 22:33:51 GMT
I agree. It also shows brings out the best in us. Where else could someone accuse another group of worshiping satan and get 28 pages of patient discourse from them? marco polo did i accuse you to worship satan ? Okey-dokey staffs.proboards37.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=opposingviewsboard&thread=4429&page=28Re: i am a born again, evangelical christian « Reply #558 Today at 21:47 » you quoted: Freemasonry goes as far, in its high echelons, as actually calling Lucifer 'God'. Oh yes and on the link, well the one i checked www.preachtheword.com/sermon/cults15.shtmlThere are 5 adverts to buy books. so please don't try to leave the impression that these guys are in this for the betterment of mankind, they make money, its a business. |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 10, 2008 22:38:34 GMT
No, I do not. But he certainly is free to believe as he likes.
I think those acts happened, and were ordered by God, but there's a bit more to the story. Again, I feel no need to defend the actions of God.
I "bother" with your posts because you have asked questions.
Brother Russell Holland is free to believe as he likes. That's the beauty of free will.
It's not an either/or proposition. I can both have my faith and let others express theirs.
I fell no need to defend God. And frankly, Jesus never argued with those who did not accept him. If, in the course of my life someone sees something in me that draws them to Christ, I'll certainly share it with them. But to dishonestly bait people into arguments, to browbeat them into conversion, and to feel some personal affront at those who don't believe is not what Christ showed during his life.
If you can show me example of this type of behavior by Christ, I'd be glad to look at it.
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Post by corab on Jun 10, 2008 22:57:13 GMT
Have you ever actually met any of these ex masons you put such great trust in? i have never met one personally, but i have read a book from someone, that was a freemason. and it was very enlightening. You know what? I've read books by freemasons, too, and some of them are utter rubbish. Nowt but speculation. Just because this anti-masonic nonsense is written by a freemason and someone's actually published it doesn't make it reliable, much less truth. We all know of these so-called testimonies. I don't know under what kind of coercion or delusion these "testimonies" were written, but they sure as heck have nothing to do with freemasonry as I know it. And funnily enough I place greater trust in my own experiences than in the conspiracy theories and axe-grinding rubbish some sad characters care to put out there. Nope. I'm afraid I am unable to emphathise with the insanity that conceived it. Define "prove". Oh great, him again. We've covered this ground. No one man (or woman) speaks for freemasonry. I don't know about my Brn:. in the Home Grand Lodges, but Pike holds no great ground in my Order, nor does Hall. It's none of my concern what they choose to believe, freemasonry is an individual and experiential endeavour -- for me. It's not representative of the freemasonry I know. These things are representative of the freemasonry I know: tolerance; absence of dogma; freedom of conscience; brotherly love, relief and truth; honour, morality, justice; self-responsibility; duty to God, country, fellow man and yourself ... do I need to continue? |
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Post by droche on Jun 10, 2008 23:01:45 GMT
in fact, the only ground I do accept, is Jesus Christ, to build up and inspire my life. well, if to follow only Jesus Christ is fool, than let's be it. i am a happy fool, then. i admit it. Don't paint yourself as the martyr. Many of us believe the same things you do. The comment was directed at your behavior, not your beliefs. Thanks Marco, you took the words right out of my mouth. |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 10, 2008 23:13:05 GMT
You know, Cora, I think you and I would disagree on just about all things theological.. but after reading the tone of your posts, I think we would have one heck of an enjoyable lunch just talking about life.
You have a great outlook on things!
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Post by corab on Jun 10, 2008 23:22:53 GMT
You know, Cora, I think you and I would disagree on just about all things theological.. but after reading the tone of your posts, I think we would have one heck of an enjoyable lunch just talking about life. Sounds like a plan to me! ;D Thanks -- that outlook is very much a work-in-progress. I like to keep an open mind and consider the value in other people's thoughts and experiences, even if (or perhaps especially when) they are contrary to mine. Challenge everything, most of all yourself! |
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Post by penfold on Jun 11, 2008 1:19:35 GMT
Got to ask, elshamah, do you seriously believe a website that claims the Pope is Jewish has anything to offer the world of reality? If you wish to engage in some serious academic studies of freemasonry try here www.shef.ac.uk/history/ma/freemasonry |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 11, 2008 1:46:37 GMT
Got to ask, elshamah, do you seriously believe a website that claims the Pope is Jewish has anything to offer the world of reality? If you wish to engage in some serious academic studies of freemasonry try here www.shef.ac.uk/history/ma/freemasonryC'mon now, who are you going to believe: Your Sheffield University source or illuminati-news.com and muderderingmasons.com? That alone should speak volumes.  |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 1:54:13 GMT
Marco Polo
i honestly still did not hear one reasonable argument with weight, that justifies to be a freemason. Just the Aids help thing ?
come on, you can do that, without making part of such a doubtful organisation. Even more, where people make part, that hate the God, of which you say you believe in.
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 11, 2008 2:25:17 GMT
I have answered your question, multiple times.
To be blunt, I don't have to justify why I am a Mason. I'm a Mason because I choose to be and there is no "reasonable argument" not to be. It is not in conflict, whatsoever, with my faith.
(Here's a quote for you from someone a bit more credible than "illuminati-news" or "murderingmasons.com":
A quick quote from a man who is former President of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) , as well as the President, Chancellor, and President-Emeritus of Baylor University (one of the largest Christian Universities in the world)
“In thousands of meetings of Freemasons and of Baptists stretching back 60 years, I have seen nothing that made my belief and work in the Fraternity of Freemasons incompatible with my belief and work as a member of a Southern Baptist church."
I am a Mason because I enjoy meeting with men, even men of other faiths, where we can speak about philosophy, charity, etc. (YES I know I can do this in my church). I also work with the American Red Cross and a local homeless charity. Neither of which are religious orders or spread the gospel. I'm sure there are atheists or even those who "hate God" in the Red Cross. I wouldn't know, and frankly don't care, as this is the not role of those organizations.
Again, the religious beliefs that Masons hold are NOT discussed in lodge. If they come out here, it is simply their opinion.
Masonry is only a "doubtful" organization in your eyes. As one who has been on "both sides of the fence" I have no doubts. Masonry is a fine organization and fraternity. Once that I am very proud to be a member of.
I also enjoy being linked by a thread of history to great men of history.
I, of course, do not HAVE to be a Mason, so I'm really not sure what you are looking for here.
I'll flip it back on you... why would I not be a member of my lodge?
Again, please look at how the quotes and references are starting to pile up:
On one side: Former Presidents of major evangelical denominations, Univeristy Presidents, Universities themselves (Sheffield), Wikipedia, US News and World Report, The actual author and publisher of one of the major hoaxes used against freemasonry, quotes directly from Masonic texts, and opinions of fellow Christians who are active Masons.
On the other: Websites which post known hoaxes, websites which you are quoting which also have such nuggets as "jewish popes" "9/11 truthers" "George W. Bushes satanic signs", "ALL CHURCHES LIE", etc.
Seriously, at what point to you just look in the mirror and say:
"You know, Angelo, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are quoting known lies and the equivalent of "brain chip implantation" conspiracy theories."
Do you honestly believe that out of all the nonsense on those sites, you latched onto the ONE that is true?
Again, yes or no, do you believe:
1. ALL CHURCHES LIE!
2. The government is about to start planting microchips into all citizens.
3. Mind control is being exercised by the Beatles.
4. The Illuminati (along with Masons) planned 9/11
5. The Pope is Jewish.
6. George W. Bush is making a "Satanic hand sign" in the photos posted
7. The quote from Albert Pike (the De la Rive quote) is legitimate.
8. The 9 feathers in the tail of the eagle in the US Seal represent the 9 degrees of the York Rite.
9. The 32 and 33 feathers on the wings of the eagle in the US Seal represent the degrees of the Scottish Rite.
10. The Queen of England is the "Grand Patroness" of world-wide Freemasonry.
(These are all references in the garbage-sites you referenced)
Are you ready to apologize and repent for the outright LIES and FALSE WITNESS you have been guilty of?
Seriously, unless you can come up with a legitimate question, get a grip. This has become like watching my pet Pug bark at it's reflection in the mirror. Funny for bit, but then you wonder if he's ever going to catch on.
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Post by hollandr on Jun 11, 2008 3:01:21 GMT
>i honestly still did not hear one reasonable argument with weight, that justifies to be a freemason. I remember reading some comments from an Anglican committee about the time of the publication of Darkness Visible en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkness_Visible_%28Hannah_book%29The committee member (chair?) said something like: We have read all the Masonic rituals and cannot see why anyone would belong. It occurs to me that if one gave Christian rituals to a non-Christian, that person might equally wonder why anyone would be a Christian. Angelo you are not the first Christian that has not understood the attraction of Masonry. I suggest that if you really want to know about the attractions of Masonry you should apply to join your local lodge. You probably would need to assert your belief in God (possibly in a trinitarian God) but no one should ask what your particular beliefs are about God. That is a matter between you and your Creator. |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 11, 2008 5:19:15 GMT
elshamah I have taken the trouble to check out the validity of the web sites from which you are getting your information and thereby your opinions, or at least what seems to be your opinions. www.bible-knowledge.com/Old-testament-vs-New-testament.htmlBible Knowledge .com 99 Cent and Free Shipping
Available at our Bookstore for Orders over $49.99 and $24.99
Discount Christian Books - click hereAt some point Angelo you have just got to realize these Guys are in the business of selling books and tapes and CD's www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/1o5.htmThis page carries just about the worst of the lies about Freemasonry, the Lucifer jibe. We see from looking down the page they also carry the Baphomet picture. It says "Eliphas Levi created this symbol, one of the foremost Satanists and Freemasons of all time." Levi was a Freemason from March 1861 until August 1861, Levi was an ex catholic Priest. The graphic was used by a Leo Taxil. Taxil was expelled from Freemasonry for wrong doing. He made a full confession that his publications and the use of the Baphomet on the cover of them was a complete falsehood. Which seems to have eluded the creators of this site. www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/symbols.htmThis web site also sells the books that it tells you will sort out the nasty Masons. www.emfj.org/bline.htmLarry Kunk was never a Freemason, Duane Washam was, his family still are Freemasons. So the emfj label [Ex Masons for Jesus] is a bit exagerated. I think out of some 6 or 7 people about 3 are ex masons. However, having battled against them for a number of years I would say they believe what they say, but like most obsessives, make the end argument fit the original premise. Which is what you are and will be doing if you dont take a much longer look at the subject. Again please check that this group does sell products and are a registered Charity, so the tax burden on what is sold is at its lowest. www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20i...._our_dollar.htmThe source for the information on this site comes from www.geocities.com/endtimedeception/seal.htm 'End of Time Deception' no names no organisation just an individual who has a geo city web site. www.illuminati-news.com/2007/0720a.htmLeo Zagarmi, has never given any actual proof to anyone that he was indeed a high level Freemason. He claims to have been a member of Infamous Italian P2 Lodge, Leo was born in 1970 and P2 was closed in 1974, surely the youngest Freemason in history. Leo is also known as 'Khaled Saifullah Khan' having converted to Islam. There have also been reports of contracts between Lucifer and Leo, his reports not mine. www.preachtheword.com/sermon/cults15.shtmlThere are 5 adverts to buy books. so please don't try to leave the impression that these guys are in this for the betterment of mankind, they make money, its a business. So the point I am trying to make and you are not receiving is, these links you are using to support your evangelical presentation are not acceptable as educated sources, they are not acceptable as they are obviously commercial. To make your argument you must seek out more substantive sources. Not just for our sake but for your own. Just like the man who built his house on sand, your fundamental argument is based on dubious information. |
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Post by corab on Jun 11, 2008 7:29:25 GMT
i honestly still did not hear one reasonable argument with weight, that justifies to be a freemason. We don't have to justify our personal choices -- just like you don't have to justify yours. Wonderful world, eh? Free Will! |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 11, 2008 8:32:48 GMT
For those who wish to persist and to emphasize that exhaustive answers have already been repeatedly provided to Angelo, I suggest we simply quote from earlier posts, rather than rehash the same points each time. Either that or simply quote from the appropriate page on the reputable website of the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon's: Anti-masonry Frequently Asked Questions. Perhaps a link to these FAQ's could be placed as a stick post to this Opposing Views on Freemasonry board. B.T.W., As for Freemasonry being Satan-inspired, the onus is not on us to prove it isn't (that would involve negative proof), the onus is on Angelo to prove it is. P.S., One thing I hope we gain from all this is the importance of distinguishing reputable sites from junk ones. Even among our number, we find on other threads outlandish references to conspiracy theories, ostensibly proven on tin-foil hat type sites. |
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