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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 11, 2008 10:44:54 GMT
My answers may well be long winded and tiresome, but they are facts.
Now to provide fact takes some time and some research. But over the years it has proven to be very successful.
Perhaps a visit to one of Angelo's oft quoted sites emfj [Essex Masons for Jesus] their forum Ephesians 5:11 would make my point.
5 or 6 years ago the E5 forum would have made the post rate here look insignificant, check the activity over the last month. I would suggest this is because of facts laid out in absolute detail over a long period of time.
If there is any doubt about what I have just said on the link between the two groups, this is from the forum: The Ephesians 5:11 web site has been up since 1997. The Ex-Masons for Jesus site went up year or so later.
The Truth will out, every time. But if apathy is there because it is just a bit too much trouble to find the truth then the 'tin foil hats' will win the day and truth will be the looser.
The issue is larger than Freemasonry alone.
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Post by corab on Jun 11, 2008 11:16:43 GMT
You know, Cora, I think you and I would disagree on just about all things theological.. but after reading the tone of your posts, I think we would have one heck of an enjoyable lunch just talking about life. You have a great outlook on things! How much would grandstand seating cost me to just watch and listen?  "Whatever you may feel disposed to give ..."  |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 11, 2008 11:57:56 GMT
The Truth will out, every time. But if apathy is there because it is just a bit too much trouble to find the truth then the 'tin foil hats' will win the day and truth will be the looser. Bro. Bill, I agree that if Angelo comes up with some new question, we may benefit from giving it our attention. However, "I cannot see the need" to respond for the umpteenth time to questions such as "I cannot see the need" to be a Freemason or whatever. Unless something substantial can be added to what has already been said, I suggest emphasizing the previous answer by quoting it, as such. By answering him afresh each time, we add to his illusion of having asked fresh questions. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 12:02:10 GMT
I have answered your question, multiple times. To be blunt, I don't have to justify why I am a Mason. I'm a Mason because I choose to be and there is no "reasonable argument" not to be. It is not in conflict, whatsoever, with my faith. (Here's a quote for you from someone a bit more credible than "illuminati-news" or "murderingmasons.com": A quick quote from a man who is former President of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) , as well as the President, Chancellor, and President-Emeritus of Baylor University (one of the largest Christian Universities in the world) “In thousands of meetings of Freemasons and of Baptists stretching back 60 years, I have seen nothing that made my belief and work in the Fraternity of Freemasons incompatible with my belief and work as a member of a Southern Baptist church." I am a Mason because I enjoy meeting with men, even men of other faiths, where we can speak about philosophy, charity, etc. (YES I know I can do this in my church). I also work with the American Red Cross and a local homeless charity. Neither of which are religious orders or spread the gospel. I'm sure there are atheists or even those who "hate God" in the Red Cross. I wouldn't know, and frankly don't care, as this is the not role of those organizations. Again, the religious beliefs that Masons hold are NOT discussed in lodge. If they come out here, it is simply their opinion. Masonry is only a "doubtful" organization in your eyes. As one who has been on "both sides of the fence" I have no doubts. Masonry is a fine organization and fraternity. Once that I am very proud to be a member of. I also enjoy being linked by a thread of history to great men of history. I, of course, do not HAVE to be a Mason, so I'm really not sure what you are looking for here. I'll flip it back on you... why would I not be a member of my lodge? Again, please look at how the quotes and references are starting to pile up: On one side: Former Presidents of major evangelical denominations, Univeristy Presidents, Universities themselves (Sheffield), Wikipedia, US News and World Report, The actual author and publisher of one of the major hoaxes used against freemasonry, quotes directly from Masonic texts, and opinions of fellow Christians who are active Masons. On the other: Websites which post known hoaxes, websites which you are quoting which also have such nuggets as "jewish popes" "9/11 truthers" "George W. Bushes satanic signs", "ALL CHURCHES LIE", etc. Seriously, at what point to you just look in the mirror and say: "You know, Angelo, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are quoting known lies and the equivalent of "brain chip implantation" conspiracy theories." Do you honestly believe that out of all the nonsense on those sites, you latched onto the ONE that is true? Again, yes or no, do you believe: 1. ALL CHURCHES LIE! 2. The government is about to start planting microchips into all citizens. 3. Mind control is being exercised by the Beatles. 4. The Illuminati (along with Masons) planned 9/11 5. The Pope is Jewish. 6. George W. Bush is making a "Satanic hand sign" in the photos posted 7. The quote from Albert Pike (the De la Rive quote) is legitimate. 8. The 9 feathers in the tail of the eagle in the US Seal represent the 9 degrees of the York Rite. 9. The 32 and 33 feathers on the wings of the eagle in the US Seal represent the degrees of the Scottish Rite. 10. The Queen of England is the "Grand Patroness" of world-wide Freemasonry. (These are all references in the garbage-sites you referenced) Are you ready to apologize and repent for the outright LIES and FALSE WITNESS you have been guilty of? Seriously, unless you can come up with a legitimate question, get a grip. This has become like watching my pet Pug bark at it's reflection in the mirror. Funny for bit, but then you wonder if he's ever going to catch on. Marco Polo its fun to see, how you ignore my points. To be blunt, I don't have to justify why I am a Mason. I'm a Mason because I choose to be and there is no reasonable argument not to be. of course you do not have to justify why you are a Mason. You participate at this thread, because you freely accept to. The only one, you will have to justify the choices, you made in your life, onces, will be God. So , what you basically claim, is, that all anti mason web pages, i linked to, do tell all lies ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 12:15:07 GMT
>i honestly still did not hear one reasonable argument with weight, that justifies to be a freemason. I remember reading some comments from an Anglican committee about the time of the publication of Darkness Visible en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkness_Visible_%28Hannah_book%29The committee member (chair?) said something like: We have read all the Masonic rituals and cannot see why anyone would belong. It occurs to me that if one gave Christian rituals to a non-Christian, that person might equally wonder why anyone would be a Christian. Angelo you are not the first Christian that has not understood the attraction of Masonry. I suggest that if you really want to know about the attractions of Masonry you should apply to join your local lodge. You probably would need to assert your belief in God (possibly in a trinitarian God) but no one should ask what your particular beliefs are about God. That is a matter between you and your Creator. no one here has given me any good reason, why i ever should join and become a freemason. I still don't know if this club is all about meet men, about honesty, freedom, all that, - why there are rituals - why there are symbols - what the objective, the real objective, of freemasonry is - why does it have to be secret because , help Aids people, and do other good to people, for this, there is no need to be a freemason. also, no one has shown me a common ground. Something , that unites all freemasons. that all freemasons say , for this we stand for. Something concrete, capable, clear and objective, not superficial, as mentioned before. No one has linked me yet to a homepage of freemasons with general approoval of all participants here. I would like to discuss based on such a homepage. To say, all pages i linked to, are hoax, and no truth in there, is asking to believe a little too much. Shure, there are pages, that are not serious, and contain lies. But, 100% should be lies ? i very much doubt it. Angelo |
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Post by tedfromiowa on Jun 11, 2008 12:17:58 GMT
So , what you basically claim, is, that all anti mason web pages, i linked to, do tell all lies ? So to misquote Professor Henry Higgins: I think he's got it! (Start music theme to Rawhide) "Trollin', trollin', trollin', god this is really borin' Trollin', trollin', trollin', Walleye....... |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 12:20:10 GMT
elshamah I have taken the trouble to check out the validity of the web sites from which you are getting your information and thereby your opinions, or at least what seems to be your opinions. www.bible-knowledge.com/Old-testament-vs-New-testament.htmlBible Knowledge .com 99 Cent and Free Shipping
Available at our Bookstore for Orders over $49.99 and $24.99
Discount Christian Books - click hereAt some point Angelo you have just got to realize these Guys are in the business of selling books and tapes and CD's www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/1o5.htmThis page carries just about the worst of the lies about Freemasonry, the Lucifer jibe. We see from looking down the page they also carry the Baphomet picture. It says "Eliphas Levi created this symbol, one of the foremost Satanists and Freemasons of all time." Levi was a Freemason from March 1861 until August 1861, Levi was an ex catholic Priest. The graphic was used by a Leo Taxil. Taxil was expelled from Freemasonry for wrong doing. He made a full confession that his publications and the use of the Baphomet on the cover of them was a complete falsehood. Which seems to have eluded the creators of this site. www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/symbols.htmThis web site also sells the books that it tells you will sort out the nasty Masons. www.emfj.org/bline.htmLarry Kunk was never a Freemason, Duane Washam was, his family still are Freemasons. So the emfj label [Ex Masons for Jesus] is a bit exagerated. I think out of some 6 or 7 people about 3 are ex masons. However, having battled against them for a number of years I would say they believe what they say, but like most obsessives, make the end argument fit the original premise. Which is what you are and will be doing if you dont take a much longer look at the subject. Again please check that this group does sell products and are a registered Charity, so the tax burden on what is sold is at its lowest. www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20i...._our_dollar.htmThe source for the information on this site comes from www.geocities.com/endtimedeception/seal.htm 'End of Time Deception' no names no organisation just an individual who has a geo city web site. www.illuminati-news.com/2007/0720a.htmLeo Zagarmi, has never given any actual proof to anyone that he was indeed a high level Freemason. He claims to have been a member of Infamous Italian P2 Lodge, Leo was born in 1970 and P2 was closed in 1974, surely the youngest Freemason in history. Leo is also known as 'Khaled Saifullah Khan' having converted to Islam. There have also been reports of contracts between Lucifer and Leo, his reports not mine. www.preachtheword.com/sermon/cults15.shtmlThere are 5 adverts to buy books. so please don't try to leave the impression that these guys are in this for the betterment of mankind, they make money, its a business. So the point I am trying to make and you are not receiving is, these links you are using to support your evangelical presentation are not acceptable as educated sources, they are not acceptable as they are obviously commercial. To make your argument you must seek out more substantive sources. Not just for our sake but for your own. Just like the man who built his house on sand, your fundamental argument is based on dubious information. Bill so because most of these sources have a commercial intent, you claim that all what they have to say, are pure lies ? nothing is true at all ? and i should believe that ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 12:21:49 GMT
i honestly still did not hear one reasonable argument with weight, that justifies to be a freemason. We don't have to justify our personal choices -- just like you don't have to justify yours. Wonderful world, eh? Free Will! of course you don't have to. Feel free to do it , or not. |
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Post by tedfromiowa on Jun 11, 2008 12:28:50 GMT
- why there are rituals - these link us with each other and the past. They also contain such messages that we need to drive into ourselves such as "helping poor and distressed masons, widows and orphans.
- why there are symbols - symbols are the strongest form of memory and communication. A symbol conveys more than words. Think of when you see the cross.
- what the objective, the real objective, of freemasonry is - brotherly love
- why does it have to be secret - it is not secret!!! Can you not understand this point. Duh.
"no one here has given me any good reason, why i ever should join and become a freemason. I still don't know" - My opinion, you should never be a freemason. There is absolutely no reason for you to be involved in this fraternity. You are not qualified.
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Post by tedfromiowa on Jun 11, 2008 12:31:41 GMT
"you claim that all what they have to say, are pure lies ? nothing is true at all ? and i should believe that ?"
Once there is one lie, that contaminates the whole. The sources you quote, believe it or not, are not credible. Yes, you should not believe them at all.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 11, 2008 12:53:43 GMT
elshamah
You see above Ted has answered in the same words as I would have.
Ted and I have known each other for some time now. He knows that I do not lie, I know that he does not. We have proven each other over a long period of time. But as he says if he caught me in a lie, he would not look at me in the same confident way again. That is Freemasonry.
But with these sites I am asking you to look at
1) The credibility of the site owners and
2) The reason why they do what they do.
You site them as source material for your accusations, you must be prepared for that source to be examined.
You are the plaintiff, we here are the defendants. The burden of proof is on your shoulders.
There are many things that have been said in the past and are being said now by Freemasons about Freemasonry that I do not agree with. So I can not say that everything on each site is a lie, what I am saying is by selling the cure and printing things that are just plain not true, yes they are tainted.
I would suggest you go seek out a Guy named W.D Rice, he has firmly held beliefs a lot more strongly held than yours, but they are founded on many years of research and debate. I disagree with him 100% on the subject of Freemasonry, but he would never use some of the source material you have quoted trust me. You should find him and Mike Gentry at the 'Order of Former Freemasons'. [ OFF ]. They are both Ex Masons.
Whilst I disagree with them totally they have done their homework, and I will tell you this, they have given up something they loved most deeply - Freemasonry.
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Post by droche on Jun 11, 2008 12:57:58 GMT
I just want to point out that in a couple of posts Angelo has implied that we have written that a reason for joining the Masons is to help people with AIDS. That is not what Marcopolo or me wrote. I asked why he does not use his energies to help rid the world of real evil such as crime, drugs, violence etc. instead of picking on an imgained bogeyman that has no evil at all. Marcopolo then suggested that there was an AIDS problem in Brazil. We never suggested that Angelo join the Masons as a vehicle for becoming involved with these things, nor did we say that the Masons as a group were involved in these things.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 13:59:14 GMT
- why there are rituals - these link us with each other and the past. They also contain such messages that we need to drive into ourselves such as "helping poor and distressed masons, widows and orphans.. might you cite a homepage, which describes such a ritual ? i would like to give a closer look at. might you show me a page which shows these symbols. I would like to give a closer look at. why should freemasonry be needed for that ? so why are there things, a freemason should never reveal to a non freemason ? wheter do want I. ;D |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 11, 2008 14:05:47 GMT
I have answered your question, multiple times. To be blunt, I don't have to justify why I am a Mason. I'm a Mason because I choose to be and there is no "reasonable argument" not to be. It is not in conflict, whatsoever, with my faith. (Here's a quote for you from someone a bit more credible than "illuminati-news" or "murderingmasons.com": A quick quote from a man who is former President of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) , as well as the President, Chancellor, and President-Emeritus of Baylor University (one of the largest Christian Universities in the world) “In thousands of meetings of Freemasons and of Baptists stretching back 60 years, I have seen nothing that made my belief and work in the Fraternity of Freemasons incompatible with my belief and work as a member of a Southern Baptist church." I am a Mason because I enjoy meeting with men, even men of other faiths, where we can speak about philosophy, charity, etc. (YES I know I can do this in my church). I also work with the American Red Cross and a local homeless charity. Neither of which are religious orders or spread the gospel. I'm sure there are atheists or even those who "hate God" in the Red Cross. I wouldn't know, and frankly don't care, as this is the not role of those organizations. Again, the religious beliefs that Masons hold are NOT discussed in lodge. If they come out here, it is simply their opinion. Masonry is only a "doubtful" organization in your eyes. As one who has been on "both sides of the fence" I have no doubts. Masonry is a fine organization and fraternity. Once that I am very proud to be a member of. I also enjoy being linked by a thread of history to great men of history. I, of course, do not HAVE to be a Mason, so I'm really not sure what you are looking for here. I'll flip it back on you... why would I not be a member of my lodge? Again, please look at how the quotes and references are starting to pile up: On one side: Former Presidents of major evangelical denominations, Univeristy Presidents, Universities themselves (Sheffield), Wikipedia, US News and World Report, The actual author and publisher of one of the major hoaxes used against freemasonry, quotes directly from Masonic texts, and opinions of fellow Christians who are active Masons. On the other: Websites which post known hoaxes, websites which you are quoting which also have such nuggets as "jewish popes" "9/11 truthers" "George W. Bushes satanic signs", "ALL CHURCHES LIE", etc. Seriously, at what point to you just look in the mirror and say: "You know, Angelo, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are quoting known lies and the equivalent of "brain chip implantation" conspiracy theories." Do you honestly believe that out of all the nonsense on those sites, you latched onto the ONE that is true? Again, yes or no, do you believe: 1. ALL CHURCHES LIE! 2. The government is about to start planting microchips into all citizens. 3. Mind control is being exercised by the Beatles. 4. The Illuminati (along with Masons) planned 9/11 5. The Pope is Jewish. 6. George W. Bush is making a "Satanic hand sign" in the photos posted 7. The quote from Albert Pike (the De la Rive quote) is legitimate. 8. The 9 feathers in the tail of the eagle in the US Seal represent the 9 degrees of the York Rite. 9. The 32 and 33 feathers on the wings of the eagle in the US Seal represent the degrees of the Scottish Rite. 10. The Queen of England is the "Grand Patroness" of world-wide Freemasonry. (These are all references in the garbage-sites you referenced) Are you ready to apologize and repent for the outright LIES and FALSE WITNESS you have been guilty of? Seriously, unless you can come up with a legitimate question, get a grip. This has become like watching my pet Pug bark at it's reflection in the mirror. Funny for bit, but then you wonder if he's ever going to catch on. Marco Polo its fun to see, how you ignore my points. To be blunt, I don't have to justify why I am a Mason. I'm a Mason because I choose to be and there is no reasonable argument not to be. of course you do not have to justify why you are a Mason. You participate at this thread, because you freely accept to. The only one, you will have to justify the choices, you made in your life, onces, will be God. So , what you basically claim, is, that all anti mason web pages, i linked to, do tell all lies ? Said the man who neglected to answer any of the 10 question in the very post he quoted!  I answered your question in the first half of my post. This is the third time I've answered it. I have been very patient in answering, in great detail, questions which you have repeatedly ask as you have not shown the common courtesy to answer mine. Again, are you not embarrassed to have openly lied and spread false witness against us? Where is your decency? Where is your Christian witness? Not even an apology? Below is a link you might make use of: www.geos-oceania.com/links/reading-comprehension-courses-and-software.htm |
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Post by leonardo on Jun 11, 2008 14:30:13 GMT
I complement those of you with the energy and enthusiasm to respond to Angelo's ludicrous allegations but personally I feel anything said which contradicts his world view is simply laughed off as meaningless.
On this thread we have heard from some well versed Masons, one even a self-confessed Born Again, Evangelical Christian, but none unfortunately seem to be getting through to Angelo. It's as if whatever is put forward is just bouncing off. It's bit like the Monty Python sketch where a UK Commander after the 2d World War is told repeatedly that the war is now over, but completely fails to grasp that it is!
I fear Angelo is either like this guy or is simply taking us all for a ride. ;D
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 15:28:59 GMT
Brothers, Might I point out once again the obvious. As you read through the account in question, there are at least two distinct and different styles of writing that are portrayed. This indicates that the owner of the account is being used by two or more persons or we have a mentally impaired individual that is posting at different phases of his/her cycles between one dominant personality and others. Either way, we are not dealing with one personality using one account. We are dealing with at least two personalities using one account. I suspect that these two or more personalities reside in two or more host bodies. Either way, I believe this is deceptive, which in itself is sinful, but it is also a violation of most forum rules. P you are wrong. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 15:31:22 GMT
So, since my sources have been classified as all without any credibility at all, i ask to the participants to come up with one freemason site, that presents its rituals and symbols, and finds common acceptance by all here. It will serve as a base for discussion.
Angelo
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 15:43:24 GMT
I think out of some 6 or 7 people about 3 are ex masons. Fine. In this case you admit they were in fact ex masons. That makes it clear, they had insight of what happens behind the doors of freemasonry. The fact that they sell some stuff, does not mean, what they say, is untrue, automatically. So lets give a closer look about what they claim. Let's see, if all, that they say, are lies. Freemasonry is not a Christian organization, nor is it an organization primarily composed of Christians. There are Hindus, Buddhists, Moslems, and even Witches who are Masons. While many Masons claim to be Christians, we question, "How can they be in fellowship with Jesus Christ if they continue to walk in darkness?" If a man is a Christian, the Holy Spirit in-dwells him. Some of us were Christians before we joined the Lodge. We can testify that the Holy Spirit was not silent as we went into the lodge. There were many aspects of Masonic ritual which grieved the Spirit. Those of us who listened left the lodge rather quickly. Some never went back, after being initiated. Others of us ignored the Holy Spirit and quenched it. Later, our eyes were opened by someone whom God had sent to witness to us. In some cases, it was a Godly wife who caused us to question Masonic teachings. At that time, the Holy Spirit confirmed the testimony of the one God had ordained to lead us to repentance. Others of us were led to Christ while we were Masons. As a result or our new 20/20 vision, we were able to see that Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. We left the lodge in order to follow Jesus. Are there Christians in the Lodge? Yes, temporarily. Conclusion : if someone despite the incompatibilities with the Christian faith does continue to be a freemason, he might not be a true christian. |
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Post by maximus on Jun 11, 2008 15:55:00 GMT
Conclusion : if someone despite the incompatibilities with the Christian faith does continue to be a freemason, he might not be a true christian. "a true christian" (sic). Then what are they? Satan worshipers? Do the opinions of these 3 or 4 disaffected (delusional) people count more than that of hundreds of thousands of Christian Masons worldwide? You presume to arrogate to yourself the authority to judge all of these people as damned? Hubris. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 11, 2008 16:52:44 GMT
Conclusion : if someone despite the incompatibilities with the Christian faith does continue to be a freemason, he might not be a true christian. "a true christian" (sic). Then what are they? Satan worshipers? Do the opinions of these 3 or 4 disaffected (delusional) people count more than that of hundreds of thousands of Christian Masons worldwide? You presume to arrogate to yourself the authority to judge all of these people as damned? Hubris. what is your religion ? |
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