i am a born again, evangelical christian

[maximus]

Sorry Angelo, but "Satan" as you envision him simply does not exist, except in the minds of the adherents of the Abrahamic faiths. You attribute almost as much power to Satan as you do YHVH, which seems to make yours a dualistic religion similar to Zoroastrianism.

Incidentally, that is where the Jews took a lot of thier beliefs from, as well as from Babylon, hiers of Sumeria. These beliefs were introduced into the Hebrew religion after the return from captivity by the Babylonians, where they had been for seventy years. Upon thier return, the new beliefs were not well recieved by the Hebrews who still dwelt there, because the ideas were forign to them. The introduction of these foriegn ideas changed the fundamental nature of the Hebrew religion.

The entire creation myth of Genisis was lifted almost verbatum from the Enuma Elish, thus showing that the underlying foundation of the Old Testament is from a pagan source, thus belieing the claim that it is divine revelation and inerrent.

All religions, yours included, are ultimately human constructs, man's attempt to make sense of a universe that he has limited knowledge of. Man has created god in his own image, within the constraints of cultural traditions.

Both Christianity and Judaism have borrowed heavily from other trditions, Greece for the former, Babylon for the latter. They are syncretic systems.

[leonardo]

Brothers, I dare say we are shouting against the wind for Angelo's mantra will undoubtedly continue as long as we keep adding flame to its fire.

[imakegarb]

Or dung

[elshamah]

Jun 12, 2008 16:43:50 GMT imakegarb said:

AndyF, per that reference in Ezekiel, the passage doesn't talk about eating human feces but the fuel used to bake the bread. Wood and other fuels, then and now, are in short supply in that region and dung (animal, generally bovine), once dried, makes a good fuel. It's still done today:
www.bioenergylists.org/stovesdoc/apro/dung/Aprodung.htm
www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/07/dung_battery/
www.oilgae.com/energy/sou/ae/re/be/fa/cd/cd.html

However, using human feces for fuel would be considered unnatural, almost like cannibalism. Ezekiel is asked to do this so that "Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." The God of the Bible seems to be into this sort of allegorical display with his prophets (have a look at what he makes Hosea do).

So it's not that Ezekiel is speading human feces pate on his bread, it's what he's using to build the fire to bake it.

Elshamah, y'all are coming very close to saying something that AntiMasons have said here before you. That it's not that Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity but that it does not promote Christianity to the exclusion of all others. Or, more to the point, that Freemasonry does not promote certain brands of Christianity to the exclusion of all other forms of Christianity, in addition to excluding all other religions. This reflects the intolerance of AntiMasons and their witch finding ways.

Rather than build up to that point, y'all may want to explore it immediately and in detail. For while none of your other accusations have stuck (largely because they're just not true), the fact that Freemasonry doesn't promote Christianity to the exclusion of all other religions is, in fact, quite true. And is the real reason you are here. To your minds, Freemasonry's greatest sin is Her rejection of the stake and the rack and the stones and other implements of the witch finders such as yourselves.

In other words, the intolerance y'all embrace and seek to force upon others is utterly rejected by Freemasonry. And that is why y'all fear Her as you do. For She never will empower y'all to do what y'all and others like y'all have done in the past.

Since this is the truth, I suggest you pursue it with all the vigor with which y'all have pursued your slanders for 35 pages now. I think you may find there's gold in this debate about intolerance vs tolerance, where there's been only lead before.

The God, of which i in fact believe in, is intolerant, when it comes to make important choices. He does not approve his folk to mix in close brotherhood with unbelievers. That's my only point.

[leonardo]

As my father use to say, "You can't explain colours to a blind man."

[maximus]

Jun 12, 2008 17:15:54 GMT imakegarb said:

Or dung

He impied that Thelemites eat excrement a couple of pages back.

I have yet to see a retraction.

[maximus]

Jun 12, 2008 17:22:57 GMT elshamah said:

The God, of which i in fact believe in, is intolerant, when it comes to make important choices. He does not approve his folk to mix in close brotherhood with unbelievers. That's my only point.

Is that why his followers are intolerent?

[thevoiceofreason]

Sorry Angelo, but Jesus isn't even original.

In the Anacalypsis, Godfrey Higgins conclusively establishes Bacchus (Dionysos) as one of the early pagan forms of the Christos myth, "The birthplace of Bacchus, called Sabazius or Sabaoth, was claimed by several places in Greece; but on Mount Zelmisus, in Thrace, his worship seems to have been chiefly celebrated. He was born of a virgin on the 25th of December; he performed great miracles for the good of mankind; particularly one in which he changed water into wine; he rode in a triumphal procession on an ass; he was put to death by the Titans, and rose again from the dead on the 25th of March: he was always called the Saviour. In his mysteries, he was shown to the people, as an infant is by the Christians at this day, on Christmas Day morning in Rome."

www.godvsthebible.com

[thevoiceofreason]

Jun 12, 2008 16:56:19 GMT @maximus said:

All religions, yours included, are ultimately human constructs, man's attempt to make sense of a universe that he has limited knowledge of. .

This is where we disagree. My religion is not man made at all, but natural in origin. I reject all man made religions.

www.godvsthebible.com

[elshamah]

Jun 12, 2008 16:48:56 GMT droche said:

Coils is not saying what God Masonry worships. Coils is talking about the differing concepts of God out there, all of which are acceptable to Freemasonry, and thus, Freemasonry has rejected nothing in this regard as your distortion of the passage falsely claims. You can also quit beating the dead horse of Pike. You have been told countless times that his writings are his own opinion and are not official Masonic positions.

By the way, I am still waiting for you to explain the related "facts" as regards Pierce Dobson's experience with Masons. You stated previously that you would like to debate one thing at a time, so do so.

ok. first thing :

Freemasonry must be understood not by its cover but by the philosophy, teachings, and spiritual forces which lie behind it

I am not an anti-mason, but I am against Freemasonry, a philosophical system which is opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ

Possibly this man had understood enough of the teachings of Freemasonry to realize that what I was saying contradicted the theology of Freemasonry.

just to hold on this. Since freemasons talk about GAOTU, we can conclude, freemasonry has in fact a doctrine and theology of its own. Despite it claims its not a religion.

Most Masons never pick up that contradiction. In fact few do! But the two systems of thought are as far apart as the east and the west, and they cannot be reconciled.

ok, there are 2 different systems of thought. Interesting to know. Despite the fact, that freemasons claim, freemasonry has nothing to do with religion, there is however a thought, that has to do with theology. And it's thought is contrary to the thought of the bible.

One is a broad road and one a narrow road, and they don't lead to the same destination.

that's clearly the first point, that should a christian make to think about.

Afterwards one deacon remarked to some of his peers that he would give up being a deacon before he would give up his lodge membership. Does that say something about where his loyalty lay? That's what Jesus meant when he said a man could not serve two masters.

interesting , isn't it ? Marco Polo preferes to defend freemasonry, but when the God of the old testament comes under atack, he remains passive and quiet.....
who is at first place in your life, mr. marco polo ?

"The issue here is truth". His response was quite revealing to those who understand the philosophy of Freemasonry. He said that what was true for me was not necessarily true for him. Had I been talking to New Ager, Shirley McLaine, the comment would have been expected, but this was a Baptist deacon who also apparently had ingested the deadly, false philosophy of Freemasonry.

one more clear sign : freemasonry is not compatible with a christian.
the philosophy and beliefs are different.

But that church's rebellious spirit, or at least some of its members' rebellious spirit against God ordained leadership, is not an isolated problem; it is to some extent found in many of the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention. Some Southern Baptists don't understand authority as God has established it. The same spirit of rebellion rampant in our nation is tragically at work among the people of God and Freemasonry is its ally.

to be a freemason, means rebellion against the God of the bible !!

This Trojan horse can expose an individual and a church to the powers of darkness because of its occultic nature and its false gospel, both of which are not readily apparent to most of its initiates.

Be aware of this !!

I must not fail to point out that it serves a subversive function, not only as a means of invading thousands of churches, but as a means of invading our political, judicial, military, and law enforcement systems, thus helping to undermine these areas of our society as well and subverting our republican form of government, paving the way for the New World Order.


And because of the victory of Jesus Christ in His life, death, and resurrection, I have assurance of His ultimate victory over all forms of evil, including Freemasonry. Hallelujah! What a Savior!

However, keep in mind that the enemy is not the Mason himself, it is Satan (Lucifer), "the angel of light", and his demonic host who assist him. Christians are to love all men, but we are to expose the works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11), defend the faith (Jude 2), and call all men to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

"It is better to be divided by truth than united in error; it is better to speak truth that hurts and then heals than to speak a lie; it is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie; it is better to stand alone with truth than to be wrong with the multitude."

[thevoiceofreason]

Jun 12, 2008 18:02:24 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 12, 2008 16:48:56 GMT droche said:

to be a freemason, means rebellion against the God of the bible !!

[

One can only hope

www.godvsthebible.com

[elshamah]

Jun 12, 2008 17:33:36 GMT @maximus said:

Jun 12, 2008 17:15:54 GMT imakegarb said:

Or dung

He impied that Thelemites eat excrement a couple of pages back.

I have yet to see a retraction.

i think no retraction needed.

www.iktmmedia.com/mason1.html

Coprophagia, which means consumption of excrement, here also includes
consumption of other secretions such as urine and sweat. It was ritually
practiced from early times on the sympathetic-magic principle that the secretions
of any entity contain part of its magis. Crowley, for example, occasionally offered
his disciples in Cefalu the excretement of a goat. This frequently met with no
small disapproval!

Crowley performed a similar ritual in his Sicilian Abbey of Thelema, during which
his Scarlet Woman was to be mounted by a goat which would be beheaded
during the climax.

what a honorable man accepted as freemason !!

within this kind of people , christians should have close brotherhood

www.iktmmedia.com/masonhome.html

[maximus]

Another anti-masonic sie.

YAWN

Once again, excrement and now, bestality, have nothing to do with Thelema.

Imaginative stories abound about Crowley, some containing an element of truth, the majority made up out of whole cloth.

I defy you to read primary source material,i.e., the Holy Books of Thelema, and find rituals involving crap and goat-sex. It dosen't exist.

Going to page five on the site you link to, I find Konspiacy BS from William Cooper, who was killed in a shootout with Federal Agents. Good source there, friend.

[maximus]

On this same site, which I link to here, we find a section entitled: Masonic Documents.

In this section we find seven pdf files, as follows:

1) Behind closed doors, the Masonic Lodge.

2) Captain William Morgan, Illustration of Masonry.

3) Masons, the True Secrets of a True Secret Society.

4) Why I Left Freemasonry.

5) John Weldon: the Masonic Lodge.

6)US Presidents and the Masonic Power Structure. (HA!)

7) The Illumninati. (!?)

With all due respect (which you fail to show to my beliefs), these are NOT Masonic documents!

[billmcelligott]

You are making a great deal of Crowley, but the truth is, there is that funny word again , TRUTH, that Crowley had but a fleeting encounter with freemasonry and that was not as part of Regular or mainstream Freemasonry.

Crowley, who was a skilled amateur of chess and had planned a career in diplomacy, persisted and tried another gambit while he was resident in Paris in 1904 in his bid for masonic regularity. He petitioned Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343, a lodge chartered in 1899 by the Grande Loge de France, a body unrecognized by the United Grand Lodge of England, on 29 June 1904.
The petition gives his name as 'Aleister St. Edward Crowley', and his occupation as 'poet'. His petition was signed by the lodge’s secretary, the Reverend James Lyon Bowley, who was, according to Crowley, chaplain to the British Embassy in Paris. Bowley had begun his masonic life as a regular mason; he was initiated in the Apollo University Lodge No. 357 in Oxford, in October 1889 and resigned in 1899. He served as Provincial Grand Organist in the Provincial Grand Lodge of Oxfordshire for the year 1892. 3 One could see how Bowley’s presence in the lodge could have led Crowley to believe that it was regular.
There is no record of Bowley having any connection with English Freemasonry after 1899. The presumption is that Bowley resigned his connection with English Freemasonry when he joined Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343, in which he was the thirtieth member on its roll. Crowley’s petition was counter-signed by the Worshipful Master of Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343, Edward-Philip Denny, and the seventh member on its roll.
Crowley was initiated on 8 October 1904, presumably passed the following month, and raised on 17 December 1904; he is listed in the 'Tableau annuel' dated 31 December 1904 with the Grand Lodge number 41210, Lodge number 54. Crowley was 'warmly welcomed by numerous English and American visitors to our Lodge', thus reinforcing his belief that all was masonically well. He wrote enthusiastically about his experience to his brother-in-law, Gerald Kelly, later President of the Royal Academy of Art:
If you are not yet a Mason, it is worth your while to become one in a French lodge. Ask Bowley, who likes Tannhäuser , or says he does, and all sorts of sweet things. (Letter, Crowley to Gerald Kelly, undated but c. 1904, University of London, Warburg Institute, G. J. Yorke Collection).
From the records made available for this paper, Crowley last appears as a member of Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343 in 1908. His name does not appear in the 1934 published list of members of the Grand Loge de France.
freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/crowley.html

CROWLEY AT GREAT QUEEN STREET
Crowley came, on 19 August 1912, to call on Bro. W J. Songhurst, Secretary of the Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076; it is not clear from his letter, typed on stationery with the return address of 52, Great Queen Street, if their meeting was at the Quatuor Coronati office or elsewhere. It is significant that Songhurst felt it prudent to give 'due and timely notice' to Westcott:

You will be interested to know that I had a call yesterday from Aleister McArthur [sic] Crowley. He produced a Certificate, showing that he is a member of the Anglo-Saxon Lodge, warranted in Paris by the Grand Lodge of France. He is desirous of joining an English Lodge, but I told him plainly that as far as 1 am concerned, 1 should refuse his admission to any English Lodge with which I am connected. 1 recommended that he should see the Grand Secretary in order to get official information, and he promised to do so. But when I called there later in the day I found that he had already made enquiries early last week, and that the information there given exactly coincided with mine. (Letter, W J. Songhurst to W. Wynn Westcott, 20 August 1912, Private Collection 'C').

Golden Dawn is no part of Freemasonry either.

you will get a better understanding of the interaction between Crowley and Freemasonry at
freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/crowley.html

The article there provides all the sources for the information provided, so there is no need for me to do the same here.

So Angelo
what a honorable man accepted as freemason !!

No he was not

[imakegarb]

Elshamah, y'all have, yet again, lifted, verbatim, passages from another website and y'all have, again, failed to cite the source. Specifically, you've lifted passages from www.ephesians5-11.org/dodson.htm.

This is a violation of our rules here, rules you agreed to when you signed up here. Specifically, this is a violation of this rule:

"You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or you have consent from the owner of the copyrighted material."

To pull whole passages from another website and post them as your own words is called "plagiarism". It is wrong. In some countries, it is illegal. It is, in short, stealing. I shouldn't have to tell y'all that.

This is, as I said, your second warning. Of course, as we've all noticed, you are more than one person using a single login so it could be that who you were when you posted your most recent message may not be who you were when you received your first warning (a warning that, at the time, you acknowledged). So who you are now may not have been who you were when you received the first warning. However, since you are using one login, the warnings are cumulative to that one login. So this is, indeed, your second warning.

I'm not inclined to think you'll get any more.

Look, all you need to do is insert a sentence that says something like "As has been noted at <insert name of source here><insert quoted lie about Freemasonry>." That isn't difficult. It is, in fact, easy and the right thing to do.

It is so easy and right that I'm wondering why you are doing otherwise. It has crossed my mind that you trying to get us into trouble by posting copyrighted passages here without attribution. Which means I'm liking you a bit less just now.

[imakegarb]

Jun 12, 2008 19:07:53 GMT billmcelligott said:

You are making a great deal of Crowley, but the truth is, there is that funny word again , TRUTH, that Crowley had but a fleeting encounter with freemasonry and that was not as part of Regular or mainstream Freemasonry.

Bro. Bill . . . . . . do you *really* want to debate that point?

I mean, talk about another wheel spinner

For what very little it's worth, Crowley had most unkind things to say about the founders of my Obedience, so I'm not inclined to think he got much from us during his fleeting experience with Co-Masonry.

[maximus]

Jun 12, 2008 19:08:38 GMT imakegarb said:

Which means I'm liking you a bit less just now.

In addition, I'm not liking the poop and goat-sex remarks.

[maximus]

Jun 12, 2008 19:07:53 GMT billmcelligott said:

You are making a great deal of Crowley, but the truth is, there is that funny word again , TRUTH, that Crowley had but a fleeting encounter with freemasonry and that was not as part of Regular or mainstream Freemasonry.

He's just having a go at me with that, Bill. Trying to discredit Thelema with the same broad brush he uses on Freemasonry.

[droche]

Jun 12, 2008 18:02:24 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 12, 2008 16:48:56 GMT droche said:

Coils is not saying what God Masonry worships. Coils is talking about the differing concepts of God out there, all of which are acceptable to Freemasonry, and thus, Freemasonry has rejected nothing in this regard as your distortion of the passage falsely claims. You can also quit beating the dead horse of Pike. You have been told countless times that his writings are his own opinion and are not official Masonic positions.

By the way, I am still waiting for you to explain the related "facts" as regards Pierce Dobson's experience with Masons. You stated previously that you would like to debate one thing at a time, so do so.

ok. first thing :

Freemasonry must be understood not by its cover but by the philosophy, teachings, and spiritual forces which lie behind it

Agree

I am not an anti-mason, but I am against Freemasonry, a philosophical system which is opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ

First part understood; second part do not agree.

Possibly this man had understood enough of the teachings of Freemasonry to realize that what I was saying contradicted the theology of Freemasonry.

And quite possibly, he doesn't.

just to hold on this. Since freemasons talk about GAOTU, we can conclude, freemasonry has in fact a doctrine and theology of its own. Despite it claims its not a religion.

No, we cannot conclude that. The mere fact that Freemasonry makes reference to a Grand Architect of the Universe in no way means that it has a religious doctrine or theology of it's own. There is no logic in that premise or conclusion: Freemasons talk about GAOTU, there fore, Freemasonry has a religious doctrine or theology. No logic in that whatsoever.

Most Masons never pick up that contradiction. In fact few do! But the two systems of thought are as far apart as the east and the west, and they cannot be reconciled.

ok, there are 2 different systems of thought. Interesting to know. Despite the fact, that freemasons claim, freemasonry has nothing to do with religion, there is however a thought, that has to do with theology. And it's thought is contrary to the thought of the bible.

Yes, there are those systems of thought. I am trying to find out exactly how exactly the school of thought that Freemasonry is contrary to the Bible supports that view. So far, I have not received a logical or factual answer.

One is a broad road and one a narrow road, and they don't lead to the same destination.

that's clearly the first point, that should a christian make to think about.

So far, all you have said is that because Freemasonry makes reference to a Grand Architect of the Universe, it has a religious doctrine and theology; and that there are two systems of thought with regard to the religious nature of Freemasonry.

Afterwards one deacon remarked to some of his peers that he would give up being a deacon before he would give up his lodge membership. Does that say something about where his loyalty lay? That's what Jesus meant when he said a man could not serve two masters.

You are distorting this man's actions. If I were in his place I would do the same thing. Not because I put Masonry above religion or that Masonry takes the place of religion, I would just be tired of this clergyman insulting and slandering Masonry. I once left a church because the Minister insulted Rainbow Girls and this Minister was a Mason! I promptly started attending another church. Clearly I wasn't putting Masonry above religion and I seriously doubt that this deacon is either.

interesting , isn't it ? Marco Polo preferes to defend freemasonry, but when the God of the old testament comes under atack, he remains passive and quiet.....
who is at first place in your life, mr. marco polo ?

I am not answering for Marco Polo but I fail to see what this has to do with the Pierce Dobson situation. You should realize by now that one person's views, mine included does not define Freemasonry.

"The issue here is truth". His response was quite revealing to those who understand the philosophy of Freemasonry. He said that what was true for me was not necessarily true for him. Had I been talking to New Ager, Shirley McLaine, the comment would have been expected, but this was a Baptist deacon who also apparently had ingested the deadly, false philosophy of Freemasonry.

You have never been in Freemasonry, so how can you understand it's philosophy? I see this so often with Anti-Masons (and I realize you are anti-Freemasonry but I am going to continue to use the common term). You all say to us things like, "You don't understand the true nature," or "The common Mason doesn't realize that there is a super-secret group that even it's members don't know about- they are the ones who actually run Freemasonry and their purpose is very evil..." Well, if someone who has been in Freemasonry for more than 25 years doesn't know about this super-secret group, then how in hell can someone who has never been in Freemasonry know about it??? In other words, people like you purport to know so much about Freemasonry but you have never been in it, so how can you???

one more clear sign : freemasonry is not compatible with a christian.
the philosophy and beliefs are different.

How?

But that church's rebellious spirit, or at least some of its members' rebellious spirit against God ordained leadership, is not an isolated problem; it is to some extent found in many of the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention. Some Southern Baptists don't understand authority as God has established it. The same spirit of rebellion rampant in our nation is tragically at work among the people of God and Freemasonry is its ally.

You say that some Southern Baptists do not understand authority as God has established it. That implies that you think that you do. How are you sure of that and how are we to be sure of that?

to be a freemason, means rebellion against the God of the bible !!

How?

This Trojan horse can expose an individual and a church to the powers of darkness because of its occultic nature and its false gospel, both of which are not readily apparent to most of its initiates.

How is Freemasonry occultic and what is it's false gospel? You still have not answered these questions. Your posts are just empty rhetoric. Again I am struck by the fact that you think you know more than initiates, in other words, people who are in Freemasonry, yet you have never been in it!

Be aware of this !!

I must not fail to point out that it serves a subversive function, not only as a means of invading thousands of churches, but as a means of invading our political, judicial, military, and law enforcement systems, thus helping to undermine these areas of our society as well and subverting our republican form of government, paving the way for the New World Order.

How? Give me some real world, verifiable answers as to how Freemasonry has ever done any of these things. Once more, I suspect it is just empty rhetoric on your part.

And because of the victory of Jesus Christ in His life, death, and resurrection, I have assurance of His ultimate victory over all forms of evil, including Freemasonry. Hallelujah! What a Savior!

However, keep in mind that the enemy is not the Mason himself, it is Satan (Lucifer), "the angel of light", and his demonic host who assist him. Christians are to love all men, but we are to expose the works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11), defend the faith (Jude 2), and call all men to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

"It is better to be divided by truth than united in error; it is better to speak truth that hurts and then heals than to speak a lie; it is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie; it is better to stand alone with truth than to be wrong with the multitude."

More empty rhetoric. You utterly fail to support your conclusions about Freemasonry.

So, I am still waiting. What exactly are the related details about Pierce Dobson? The only thing you have mentioned was that a Deacon of his Church, who was also a mason, threatened to resign. I'd still like to know how Freemasonry is "Satan's Trojan Horse" as he puts it.