|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 12, 2008 20:02:06 GMT
Elshamah, y'all have, yet again, lifted, verbatim, passages from another website and y'all have, again, failed to cite the source. Specifically, you've lifted passages from www.ephesians5-11.org/dodson.htm. This is a violation of our rules here, rules you agreed to when you signed up here. Specifically, this is a violation of this rule: "You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or you have consent from the owner of the copyrighted material." To pull whole passages from another website and post them as your own words is called "plagiarism". It is wrong. In some countries, it is illegal. It is, in short, stealing. I shouldn't have to tell y'all that. This is, as I said, your second warning. Of course, as we've all noticed, you are more than one person using a single login so it could be that who you were when you posted your most recent message may not be who you were when you received your first warning (a warning that, at the time, you acknowledged). So who you are now may not have been who you were when you received the first warning. However, since you are using one login, the warnings are cumulative to that one login. So this is, indeed, your second warning. I'm not inclined to think you'll get any more. Look, all you need to do is insert a sentence that says something like "As has been noted at <insert name of source here><insert quoted lie about Freemasonry>." That isn't difficult. It is, in fact, easy and the right thing to do. It is so easy and right that I'm wondering why you are doing otherwise. It has crossed my mind that you trying to get us into trouble by posting copyrighted passages here without attribution. Which means I'm liking you a bit less just now. it seems you have not observed , that i have answered to following : By the way, I am still waiting for you to explain the related "facts" as regards Pierce Dobson's experience with Masons. You stated previously that you would like to debate one thing at a time, so do so. that made it clear, to what webpage i was taking reference. |
|
|
|
Post by droche on Jun 12, 2008 20:11:25 GMT
And I told you: I read that web page. I provided my analysis of it. You said look at the related details. I asked you what those related details were. What are they?
By the way, I can now see a distinct difference in the styles of the above post and the one I most previously answered. Which Elshamah is which?
|
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 12, 2008 20:13:07 GMT
ok. first thing : Agree First part understood; second part do not agree. And quite possibly, he doesn't. No, we cannot conclude that. The mere fact that Freemasonry makes reference to a Grand Architect of the Universe in no way means that it has a religious doctrine or theology of it's own. There is no logic in that premise or conclusion: Freemasons talk about GAOTU, there fore, Freemasonry has a religious doctrine or theology. No logic in that whatsoever. Yes, there are those systems of thought. I am trying to find out exactly how exactly the school of thought that Freemasonry is contrary to the Bible supports that view. So far, I have not received a logical or factual answer. So far, all you have said is that because Freemasonry makes reference to a Grand Architect of the Universe, it has a religious doctrine and theology; and that there are two systems of thought with regard to the religious nature of Freemasonry. You are distorting this man's actions. If I were in his place I would do the same thing. Not because I put Masonry above religion or that Masonry takes the place of religion, I would just be tired of this clergyman insulting and slandering Masonry. I once left a church because the Minister insulted Rainbow Girls and this Minister was a Mason! I promptly started attending another church. Clearly I wasn't putting Masonry above religion and I seriously doubt that this deacon is either. I am not answering for Marco Polo but I fail to see what this has to do with the Pierce Dobson situation. You should realize by now that one person's views, mine included does not define Freemasonry. You have never been in Freemasonry, so how can you understand it's philosophy? I see this so often with Anti-Masons (and I realize you are anti-Freemasonry but I am going to continue to use the common term). You all say to us things like, "You don't understand the true nature," or "The common Mason doesn't realize that there is a super-secret group that even it's members don't know about- they are the ones who actually run Freemasonry and their purpose is very evil..." Well, if someone who has been in Freemasonry for more than 25 years doesn't know about this super-secret group, then how in hell can someone who has never been in Freemasonry know about it??? In other words, people like you purport to know so much about Freemasonry but you have never been in it, so how can you??? How? You say that some Southern Baptists do not understand authority as God has established it. That implies that you think that you do. How are you sure of that and how are we to be sure of that? How? How is Freemasonry occultic and what is it's false gospel? You still have not answered these questions. Your posts are just empty rhetoric. Again I am struck by the fact that you think you know more than initiates, in other words, people who are in Freemasonry, yet you have never been in it! Be aware of this !! How? Give me some real world, verifiable answers as to how Freemasonry has ever done any of these things. Once more, I suspect it is just empty rhetoric on your part. More empty rhetoric. You utterly fail to support your conclusions about Freemasonry. So, I am still waiting. What exactly are the related details about Pierce Dobson? The only thing you have mentioned was that a Deacon of his Church, who was also a mason, threatened to resign. I'd still like to know how Freemasonry is "Satan's Trojan Horse" as he puts it. i could take my time now, and start to present facts, that are freely accessible on the internet. However, as soon as presented, the participants come with their simplistic answers : oh, its all fantasy, its all lies, its all invented, its all old stories, no one of them true..... however, by acess the first official freemason page, what is the first thing that appears ? promotion and link to partner organisations, like Thelema, that are CLEARLY satanic. Does only not see, who is blind, and does not WANT to face the facts. Is it wondering, that freemasonry does attract so many people, that are in fact adherents of religions and faith systems, that are satanic ? i don't think so. |
|
|
|
Post by droche on Jun 12, 2008 20:32:38 GMT
So, then, take your time and present the facts. If it's logical and true why should you be afraid of what others might say? If so many say that your allegations are fantasy, lies, old etc. it should occur to you that it's perhaps because they are. Any time I have refuted anything you have said I have supported it. What do you mean by the "first official freemason page?" What is Thelema? You say it is connected to Freemasonry but I have never heard of it, just like I had never heard of Jabulon until another anti-Mason tried to tell me I worshipped him. How is Thelema, whatever that is, connected to Freemasonry? How do you know? Just because a web site says so? Just because some members of Thelema might also be Masons? How do you know that Thelema is satanic? You see, you level all these serious charges that question one's morality, (even though you say you are only against the institution, it is it's people who make up the institution) you had better be prepared to support your allegations, otherwise you are just libeling us.
|
|
|
|
Post by corab on Jun 12, 2008 21:10:39 GMT
if freemasons do not recognize my arguments, it does not mean they are not valid. Likewise so, if you do not recognise our arguments, that does not mean they are not valid. Hmmmm ... I don't know how many of "you" there are, but I'm thinking there's more people "testifying" on our side than you guys can throw senseless quotes and URLs at. Darn. And here I was thinking y'all finally got it through to your thick skulls that there is no such thing as a "God of the freemasons". Oh well ...  |
|
|
|
Post by corab on Jun 12, 2008 21:27:19 GMT
Look, just stop messing around and speak for yourself. To assume you can fool us when it is so blatantly obvious there is more than one person using this account is not only dishonest, it is arrogant and offensive. I don't deal with dishonest people. Whoever you are, however many of you there are, be well and travel with your God. I'm bowing out. Freemasonry must be understood not by its cover but by the philosophy, teachings, and spiritual forces which lie behind it I am not an anti-mason, but I am against Freemasonry, a philosophical system which is opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ Possibly this man had understood enough of the teachings of Freemasonry to realize that what I was saying contradicted the theology of Freemasonry.just to hold on this. Since freemasons talk about GAOTU, we can conclude, freemasonry has in fact a doctrine and theology of its own. Despite it claims its not a religion. Most Masons never pick up that contradiction. In fact few do! But the two systems of thought are as far apart as the east and the west, and they cannot be reconciled.ok, there are 2 different systems of thought. Interesting to know. Despite the fact, that freemasons claim, freemasonry has nothing to do with religion, there is however a thought, that has to do with theology. And it's thought is contrary to the thought of the bible. One is a broad road and one a narrow road, and they don't lead to the same destination. that's clearly the first point, that should a christian make to think about. Afterwards one deacon remarked to some of his peers that he would give up being a deacon before he would give up his lodge membership. Does that say something about where his loyalty lay? That's what Jesus meant when he said a man could not serve two masters. interesting , isn't it ? Marco Polo preferes to defend freemasonry, but when the God of the old testament comes under atack, he remains passive and quiet..... who is at first place in your life, mr. marco polo ? "The issue here is truth". His response was quite revealing to those who understand the philosophy of Freemasonry. He said that what was true for me was not necessarily true for him. Had I been talking to New Ager, Shirley McLaine, the comment would have been expected, but this was a Baptist deacon who also apparently had ingested the deadly, false philosophy of Freemasonry. one more clear sign : freemasonry is not compatible with a christian. the philosophy and beliefs are different. But that church's rebellious spirit, or at least some of its members' rebellious spirit against God ordained leadership, is not an isolated problem; it is to some extent found in many of the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention. Some Southern Baptists don't understand authority as God has established it. The same spirit of rebellion rampant in our nation is tragically at work among the people of God and Freemasonry is its ally. to be a freemason, means rebellion against the God of the bible !! This Trojan horse can expose an individual and a church to the powers of darkness because of its occultic nature and its false gospel, both of which are not readily apparent to most of its initiates.Be aware of this !! I must not fail to point out that it serves a subversive function, not only as a means of invading thousands of churches, but as a means of invading our political, judicial, military, and law enforcement systems, thus helping to undermine these areas of our society as well and subverting our republican form of government, paving the way for the New World Order.
And because of the victory of Jesus Christ in His life, death, and resurrection, I have assurance of His ultimate victory over all forms of evil, including Freemasonry. Hallelujah! What a Savior! However, keep in mind that the enemy is not the Mason himself, it is Satan (Lucifer), "the angel of light", and his demonic host who assist him. Christians are to love all men, but we are to expose the works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11), defend the faith (Jude 2), and call all men to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)."It is better to be divided by truth than united in error; it is better to speak truth that hurts and then heals than to speak a lie; it is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie; it is better to stand alone with truth than to be wrong with the multitude." |
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 12, 2008 21:30:52 GMT
So, then, take your time and present the facts. If it's logical and true why should you be afraid of what others might say? If so many say that your allegations are fantasy, lies, old etc. it should occur to you that it's perhaps because they are. Any time I have refuted anything you have said I have supported it. What do you mean by the "first official freemason page? this is a freemason site, someone posted here : www.droit-humain.org/uk/html/links.htmland it says : Please follow these links for recommended organisations and masonic sites. What does that mean ? it means thes organisation do have a approval and a connection. Otherwise, they would not be recommended. So what organisations are recommended ? # The British Martinist Ordersome insights here : www.google.com/custom?domains=conspiracyarchive.com&q=martinist+order&sa=Search&sitesearch=conspiracyarchive.com&client=pub-376154466 3336296&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000 %3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter% 3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF %3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1 %3B&hl=en edited to shorten link - you will have to copy paste linkthats pure satanism The aim of this Order is to increase individual, spiritual awareness for the betterment of humanity. # Order Militia Crucifera EvangelicaThe inner purpose of the M.C.E. was to establish an exoteric body of Servants of Light to direct and guide humanity towards mystical enlightenment. One of the resulting establishments was 17th Century Rosicrucianism, which was an activation of the Ancient Rosae Crucis. thats pure satanism The OMCE is an international non-profit fraternal organisation. The Order, which studies such subjects as metaphysics, mysticism, gnosticism, 17th Century Rosicrucianism and Rosicrucian history, expresses itself using the oral, ancient, western esoteric tradition. The OMCE also promotes projects consecrated to the spiritual upliftment of humankind. # The Rosicrucian Archivethats pure satanism. no further comments needed Presenting the ideals of Rosicrucianism and the contributions of the Rosicrucians to the spiritual upliftment of humankind. # Servants of the LightThe Servants Of the Light School of Occult Science, is a fully contacted Mystery School, teaching throughout the world, by correspondence. # The Theosophical Societythats pure satanism as well.... furter comments needed ? |
|
|
|
Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 12, 2008 22:08:44 GMT
You are totally incorrect. But let me for one second take the liberty to "assume" your beliefs. Anything other than blind obedience to the Jesus Christ myth "pure Satanism?" I suspect your answer will be yes. www.godvsthebible.com |
|
|
|
Post by droche on Jun 12, 2008 22:27:11 GMT
Well, like Cora, I think I am done as well. It is obvious that there is more than one person passing themselves off as "Elshamah" and this goes to issues like basic integrity, and I won't deal with that type of deception. But as to the last post, you list several organizations that appear on a Masonic web page and you state that this demonstrates approval and a connection. I guess it tacitly indicates an approval, but as to a connection, the page clearly shows two categories of links: "Masonic," and "Other Organizations." The groups you list above are in the "Other Organization" category, clearly showing that they are not connected. As usual, you state these other organizations are "satanic" but fail to state how. Whenever you are asked to support your positions you just keep saying, "Read this other web page." You consistently fail to articulate why you feel the way you do and I am done falling for your bait. I am through with the trolling and the charade. Sayonara, whoever you are.
|
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 12, 2008 22:28:16 GMT
You are making a great deal of Crowley, but the truth is, there is that funny word again , TRUTH, that Crowley had but a fleeting encounter with freemasonry and that was not as part of Regular or mainstream Freemasonry. Bro. Bill . . .  . . . do you *really* want to debate that point? I mean, talk about another wheel spinner  For what very little it's worth, Crowley had most unkind things to say about the founders of my Obedience, so I'm not inclined to think he got much from us during his fleeting experience with Co-Masonry. The truth is the truth, the evidence says that Crowley and few others of his time were interested in pushing boundaries. They were not particular which vehicle they used. They used a few, that is not to say they were wrong to do so. It would be like me saying Judas was a good Christian it is just not truthful. However he played his part in the scheme of things as no doubt Crowley did. But for someone to say Freemasonry worships occult becuse Cowley was a Freemason is simply just a lie. It must be exposed as such. Angelo is painting a picture of Freemasonry as devil worshiping and occult. It is not and when someone tries to portray Freemasonry as an occult practice I have to present the facts. I am happy to go down any route anyone would like to go. I will just bring facts and truth to wherever we go. |
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 12, 2008 22:34:43 GMT
Hey Angelo (all of you!) Look:  BOO! Muahahahaha!!! ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 12, 2008 22:40:25 GMT
Bro. Bill . . . . . . do you *really* want to debate that point? I mean, talk about another wheel spinner For what very little it's worth, Crowley had most unkind things to say about the founders of my Obedience, so I'm not inclined to think he got much from us during his fleeting experience with Co-Masonry. The truth is the truth, the evidence says that Crowley and few others of his time were interested in pushing boundaries. They were not particular which vehicle they used. They used a few, that is not to say they were wrong to do so. It would be like me saying Judas was a good Christian it is just not truthful. However he played his part in the scheme of things as no doubt Crowley did. But for someone to say Freemasonry worships occult becuse Cowley was a Freemason is simply just a lie. It must be exposed as such. Angelo is painting a picture of Freemasonry as devil worshiping and occult. It is not and when someone tries to portray Freemasonry as an occult practice I have to present the facts. I am happy to go down any route anyone would like to go. I will just bring facts and truth to wherever we go. There are perfectly legit Rite's in Freemasonry that are very occult. The Rite Of Memphis, The Rite of Misraim, The Rite Of Memphis-Misraim, The Rite Of The Philadelphians and the Dharmic and Lauderdale Rite's. The "occult" is no boogeyman and we should no shy from it. www.godvsthebible.com |
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Jun 12, 2008 23:04:49 GMT
So there you have it Brethren , Elshamah has spoken "it's pure Satanism" What need do we have of further debate or discussion HE KNOWS! HE HAS SPOKEN!Back in the REAL world however..................................  |
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 12, 2008 23:13:14 GMT
It depends on your meaning of the word occult :
If you wish to invoke the above meaning then fine.
If however you are moving toward Satanic meaning, then you can leave me and mine [99% of Freemasonry] well out of it. I want no part of anything that resembles anything evil or has any evil intent.
Like many things in Freemasonry it depends on where you sit. I maintain there are three degrees in Freemasonry and everything else is an add on. I don't have a problem with the add ons, [additional orders] just that they must not be superior to the main body.
|
|
|
|
Post by maat on Jun 12, 2008 23:37:17 GMT
37 pages? I am truly amazed at how many people enjoy talking to brick walls Maat Max - naughty boy! Wait till your father gets home... |
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 12, 2008 23:37:59 GMT
You are totally incorrect. But let me for one second take the liberty to "assume" your beliefs. Anything other than blind obedience to the Jesus Christ myth "pure Satanism?" I suspect your answer will be yes. www.godvsthebible.comsorry, what jesus mith ?  |
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 12, 2008 23:39:51 GMT
Well, like Cora, I think I am done as well. It is obvious that there is more than one person passing themselves off as "Elshamah" and this goes to issues like basic integrity, and I won't deal with that type of deception. But as to the last post, you list several organizations that appear on a Masonic web page and you state that this demonstrates approval and a connection. I guess it tacitly indicates an approval, but as to a connection, the page clearly shows two categories of links: "Masonic," and "Other Organizations." The groups you list above are in the "Other Organization" category, clearly showing that they are not connected. As usual, you state these other organizations are "satanic" but fail to state how. Whenever you are asked to support your positions you just keep saying, "Read this other web page." You consistently fail to articulate why you feel the way you do and I am done falling for your bait. I am through with the trolling and the charade. Sayonara, whoever you are. i don't know for what reason people here think, there is more than one person posting. first time that happens with me. and completely untrue. I am a christian, and to say the truth is one of the utmost priorities to follow and serve Christ. Absolutely no reason to lie. |
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 12, 2008 23:42:18 GMT
Hey Angelo (all of you!) Look: BOO! Muahahahaha!!! ;D ;D the Devil is under ouf feet, and completely defeated ;D. No reason to fear . |
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Jun 12, 2008 23:46:48 GMT
"I don't know for what reason people here think, there is more than one person posting. first time that happens with me. and completely untrue."
That's it, he's one of that lot that "speak in tongues" . That's why many posters here think that he is more than one person. Either that or he is schizophrenic. Perhaps his "voices" tell him what to post?
|
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 12, 2008 23:49:48 GMT
If however you are moving toward Satanic meaning, then you can leave me and mine [99% of Freemasonry] well out of it. I want no part of anything that resembles anything evil or has any evil intent. I have, in 35 years of occult scholarship and practice, never found anything "evil" or "satanic" about it. As you say, "occult" is simply Latin for "hidden." This implies knowledge that is "hidden" from those who have not eyes to see. Even "Satanists" are not purly "evil." I have known and spoken at length with Satanists, of both the LaVeyan variety and Theistic Satanists. The LaVeyans do not believe in a literal Satan at all, theirs is a Humanistic Philosophy, couched in the symbolism of "Satanism." The Theistic variety do believe in a literal Satan, but see him as the true, liberating Deity, and believe that the God of the Bible is a false god, who trapped mankind's spirits in the material world. Both are Left-Hand Path (LHP) disciplines, whereas Golden Dawn, Thelema, Wicca, etc. are Right Hand Path (RHP). Both are branches of the same tree; one a shadow of the other, a reflection. Neither path is a true evil, a Black Brotherhood. Freemasonry is a RHP Brotherhood, one of the Light, even in the traditional Craft degrees, although most do not realise what power they are tapping into. A Black Brother is one who, upon the threshold of the Abyss, refuses to surrender his own ego in sacrifice to the greater good, thus turning back into himself. There is the true evil. |
|
. . . do you *really* want to debate that point?
