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Post by mattjtayl on Feb 15, 2008 5:03:05 GMT
Don't mean to step on anyone's toes just been wanting to ask this in the most gentle way I can.
Ok one thing I don't get, is why so many masons discourage new members from joining the shrine?
My uncle is a shriner and has donated a lot of money to the shriner hospitals. I had wanted to be a shriner because I saw all the great things he did for the children in the shrine. However after what some members have said, I have had second thoughts. I would like your opinions.
Many members actively discourage new members from joining the shrine. One thing they don't like is the alcohol. They say it gets away from tradition the way the masons always were. The one thing that they seem to say a lot is "In blue lodge it is forbidden to drink so why is it allowed in the shrine?"
They also don't like the fact that many people just join the masons so they can be shriners. They have no desire to be actively involved they just want the title of "shriner" next to their name so people will have a favorable opinion of them.
My fellow brothers in the lodge tell me there are masons ... and then there are MASONS! Implying the real masons are the ones who don't join just to get perks out of being a masons, but actually want to live up to the standards they took their obligations too.
opinions? Should I join the shrine? Do you disagree or agree with their opinions?
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Post by maximus on Feb 15, 2008 5:34:45 GMT
The only one who can determine if you should join should be you. I have no interest in the Shrine, but that is just me.
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Post by sniffles on Feb 15, 2008 5:43:40 GMT
Don't mean to step on anyone's toes just been wanting to ask this in the most gentle way I can. Ok one thing I don't get, is why so many masons discourage new members from joining the shrine? My uncle is a shriner and has donated a lot of money to the shriner hospitals. I had wanted to be a shriner because I saw all the great things he did for the children in the shrine. However after what some members have said, I have had second thoughts. I would like your opinions. Many members actively discourage new members from joining the shrine. One thing they don't like is the alcohol. They say it gets away from tradition the way the masons always were. The one thing that they seem to say a lot is "In blue lodge it is forbidden to drink so why is it allowed in the shrine?" They also don't like the fact that many people just join the masons so they can be shriners. They have no desire to be actively involved they just want the title of "shriner" next to their name so people will have a favorable opinion of them. My fellow brothers in the lodge tell me there are masons ... and then there are MASONS! Implying the real masons are the ones who don't join just to get perks out of being a masons, but actually want to live up to the standards they took their obligations too. opinions? Should I join the shrine? Do you disagree or agree with their opinions? I was discouraged to stay away too, and many brothers at my lodge left the Shrine. I asked the brothers what was going on and the thing between the Blue Lodge and the Shrine begins with alcohol in Alabama? From what I know these Shriners were selling beer in their temple and the Grand Lodge disapproved of the selling of it because it violated certain dry rules and stuff... Then the Shriners basically said 'we can do what we want; and the Grand Lodge and Imperial Shrine had it off. The Shrine said that without them Freemasonry would be nothing because they had all the hospitals, and raised all the money, and blue lodge masons were lazy. Then the Shrine threatened to leave Freemasonry and be their own organization, and some Shrines began initiating non-masons. This is when I learned about it, and when the brothers at my lodge left - because they were letting in non-masons. I don't know how things are with the Shrine anymore cuz we don't talk about them in my lodge.
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Post by windtimber on Feb 15, 2008 15:16:58 GMT
Old news - old memories - old grudges - old turf battle - at least that's my take as a long time Shriner.
The Rites suffered when rite membership was no longer a prerequisite to joining the Shrine. Some misguided higher ups in the Shrine "stepped in it" when they suggested Blue Lodge ties should either be severed or, at least, weakened. [They haven't been, by the way. You still need to belong to Blue Lodge to be in the Shrine.] Some stalwart Blue Lodge members can't understand why some brothers are very active in the Shrine and not active in Blue Lodge - and translate that into a belief the Shrine is "non-cooperative." Some York Rite masons are jealous of busy Scottish Rite bodies. Etc., etc., etc. Competition seems to have bred ill-will in some circumstances over the years. And, in the past and maybe still in some place, all of those jealousies remaikn, or may have been true in the past.
In our jurisdiction jurisdiction the Blue Lodge, Rites, and Shrine came to a conclusion similar to Ben Franklin's comments on the Declaration of Independence - "If we don't hang together we'll certainly all hang separately." Though there is still some work to do we all try to come together as a Masonic Family - realising that what's good for the Blue Lodge has positive effects on the Rites and Shrine and vice versa. After all, a rising tide lifts all boats. Maybe there are men who only want the social and philanthropic activities of the Shrine. But they still have gone through the Blue Lodge and some place down in their hearts they learned something of our lessons. Some prefer esoteric Masonry and stick with educational activities in Lodge. Others are thespians and love to participate in theatrical productions for the degrees in the Rites. The Fraternity as a whole is big enough for everyone's varied interests. By appreciating our differences and reveling in our common bonds, the Craft will continue to succeed in the long run.
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Post by sniffles on Feb 15, 2008 16:55:11 GMT
"If we don't hang together we'll certainly all hang separately."
I like that quote. so true in regards to Freemasonry as it is today.
I do remember the Shrine being every brothers goal, and it was the main reason why brothers even went thru the Rites.
I remember sitting there with brothers in the York Rite long before this happened hearing them complain about how they only go thru our Rite to get to the Shrine, and we never see them again.
The Shrine is very active; it does have all the hospitals; and raised a lot of money. It would be a shame to lose you guys. I see it as a symbiotic relationship.
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Post by Blackadder on Feb 15, 2008 18:22:06 GMT
I have been told on many occasions that "if you want to have fun ,join the Shrine,this is a working Lodge" I have no intension of joining the Shrine,although the thought of a cold beer and a bratwurst does sound very appealing,Im going to stick with my "Blue Lodge" ;D
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Post by danael on Feb 16, 2008 0:05:43 GMT
We have to remember that the Shrine is not a Masonic organization. It is however made up of Master Masons in good standing within thier lodges. It isn't for everyone and that's fine. The stalwort Blue Lodge Masons should not down the Shrine for what they do or how the operate just as the Shriner's shouldn't object to any other membership. There was a time in ther Shrine's history that men would be expelled from thier lodges for joining the A.A.O.N.M.S. I'm glad those days are over as I find both bodies fulfilling in seperate ways. That's my take on it.
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Post by Bettendorf on Feb 16, 2008 7:22:13 GMT
Many members actively discourage new members from joining the shrine. One thing they don't like is the alcohol. They say it gets away from tradition the way the masons always were. I find that statement quite funny. Wasn't the Premier Grand Lodge established in the Goose and Grid Iron Tavern?
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 16, 2008 9:13:27 GMT
Indeed so Bro Bettendorf, a well known Grand Lodge was formed in a Tavern (Pub) in London in 1717 and i don't suppose for one moment they drank Orange Juice!
In Lodges in those days they actually ate and drank and smoked in the same room in which the Ceremonies were performed, some groups of Masons in England act out a Lodge Meeting of those days in full costume, well worth seeing!
I personally feel that the Anglo-Saxon nations have a guilt complex about eating and drinking whereas the Latin peoples enjoy such experiences with no hang-ups.
As for Prohibition, it is farcical that this failed social experiment , which did much to boost the fortunes of Gangsters and Organised Crime in the USA , still has its vestiges in some American Lodges where drinking alcohol is forbidden, indeed I have read on Masonic Fora such as this that some US Grand Lodges would expel a Brother were he to be found to work in the Liquor Trade! Over here in the UK many Masonic Halls have their own bar and alcoholic drinks can be bought by those who wish after the Meeting and drank at the Festive Board (Meal) afterwards. There is seldom any drunkenness or unruly conduct I can assure you. we also have many Brethren who manage Pubs or work in the Licensed Trade.
I honestly feel that if American Blue (Craft) Lodges wish to prevent Brethren joining then leaving for the Shrine where one can enjoy an Alcoholic drink then they should abolish the ban on serving and drinking Liquor on their premises after the meetings.
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Post by Antonius on Feb 17, 2008 12:45:07 GMT
you dont need to be part of some club to be charitable.
it seems to me that people who insist on doing that, are more interested in being recognised for their charity, then the charity itself. the most earnest way of donating anything is in anonymity.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 17, 2008 12:54:17 GMT
you dont need to be part of some club to be charitable. it seems to me that people who insist on doing that, are more interested in being recognised for their charity, then the charity itself. the most earnest way of donating anything is in anonymity. are you aware then that the Grand Charity in the UK is the second largest donator to charity and is only surpassed by the National Lottery. Well I can give you the answer. No you don't and not many do. And your right you do not need to be a part of any club, but how many people actually do donate to Charity without being prompted in some way ? Plus clubs are the most efficient way of collecting charitable donations. My Wife belongs to a number of clubs all of which create some charitable funds. Its just easier to raise money when you having fun doing it.
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Post by danael on Feb 17, 2008 14:59:58 GMT
The shrine is not a charitable organization. In the words of the imperial council we are "the worlds greatest fraternity with the worlds largest philanthropy". Sure one can donate to the shrine of thier own free will and many people do but the fun we have in our activities is just a perk. The hospitals were started during the polio out break as a way to assist the children.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Feb 17, 2008 20:14:18 GMT
I would not say that the Shriners are hated in most blue lodges. They do take membership away from the Blue Lodge and that may cause strife.
There are also lowlife groups amongst the Shrine like the Royal Order Of Jesters who seem to stand 110% against what Freemasonry teaches us so they are looked as hypocritical.
The Shrine wants to be the "animal house" of Freemasonry when Freemasonry doesn't need one nor should it have one. The Shrine should just make thier own way. IMHO
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Post by leonardo on Feb 18, 2008 13:40:29 GMT
Is the Shrine only associated with US Freemasonry?
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Post by Blackadder on Feb 18, 2008 13:42:22 GMT
Indeed so Bro Bettendorf, a well known Grand Lodge was formed in a Tavern (Pub) in London in 1717 and i don't suppose for one moment they drank Orange Juice! In Lodges in those days they actually ate and drank and smoked in the same room in which the Ceremonies were performed, some groups of Masons in England act out a Lodge Meeting of those days in full costume, well worth seeing! I personally feel that the Anglo-Saxon nations have a guilt complex about eating and drinking whereas the Latin peoples enjoy such experiences with no hang-ups. As for Prohibition, it is farcical that this failed social experiment , which did much to boost the fortunes of Gangsters and Organised Crime in the USA , still has its vestiges in some American Lodges where drinking alcohol is forbidden, indeed I have read on Masonic Fora such as this that some US Grand Lodges would expel a Brother were he to be found to work in the Liquor Trade! Over here in the UK many Masonic Halls have their own bar and alcoholic drinks can be bought by those who wish after the Meeting and drank at the Festive Board (Meal) afterwards. There is seldom any drunkenness or unruly conduct I can assure you. we also have many Brethren who manage Pubs or work in the Licensed Trade. I honestly feel that if American Blue (Craft) Lodges wish to prevent Brethren joining then leaving for the Shrine where one can enjoy an Alcoholic drink then they should abolish the ban on serving and drinking Liquor on their premises after the meetings. I agree 100% ,well said that Brother.
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Post by waynecowley on Feb 18, 2008 15:01:05 GMT
Is the Shrine only associated with US Freemasonry? Mostly but not exclusively - JulesTheBit is President of the UK Shriners and if he logs in I am sure he can give more detail Wayne
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Post by danael on Feb 18, 2008 15:11:36 GMT
"I honestly feel that if American Blue (Craft) Lodges wish to prevent Brethren joining then leaving for the Shrine where one can enjoy an Alcoholic drink then they should abolish the ban on serving and drinking Liquor on their premises after the meetings"
The Shrine does not require one to leave the craft lodges. You can't leave the craft lodge and continue with being a Shriner. If you quit the blue lodge you have to leave the Shrine as well. You have to be a member of a craft lodge at all times while being a Shriner. The Shrine is not about stealing members. But you have to admit that requiring one to be a Master Mason is a very good way to weed out the riff-raff.
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Post by Blackadder on Feb 18, 2008 16:38:51 GMT
A group of Brothers from Scotland are coming to Orlando in May and are going to do a degree at out lodge,there will be no candidates etc.Its for the Brothers to see how it is done in Scotland. The thing I cant wait for is after the meeting /degree when the Scottish Brothers are served up food on disposable plates and forks and knives. And not a alcoholic drink in sight.It should be priceless.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 18, 2008 16:49:00 GMT
Is the Shrine only associated with US Freemasonry? Mostly but not exclusively - JulesTheBit is President of the UK Shriners and if he logs in I am sure he can give more detail Wayne Thanks for that. I was just just curious, but it would be nice to learn a little more about the UK version.
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Post by maximus on Feb 18, 2008 16:51:55 GMT
A group of Brothers from Scotland are coming to Orlando in May and are going to do a degree at out lodge,there will be no candidates etc.Its for the Brothers to see how it is done in Scotland. The thing I cant wait for is after the meeting /degree when the Scottish Brothers are served up food on disposable plates and forks and knives. And not a alcoholic drink in sight.It should be priceless. not!! I see you use paper plates and plastic utensils too.
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