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Post by whistler on Oct 18, 2007 21:18:31 GMT
We go out about once a month with a Group of these neighbors. Quiz, Talent Night, Show that sort of thing. no one has ever joked or made disparaging remarks about her in our presence. How true Phillip she should be admired for her honesty and courage - mmmm ideal Masonic aims
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 18, 2007 21:38:47 GMT
How true Philip she should be admired for her honesty and courage - mmmm ideal Masonic aims I'm pretty sure she would say it was no big deal. Each time she was just out having fun, like the rest of us.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 18, 2007 21:43:41 GMT
Bill, what a preposterous comparison to make between your social group setting and a Co-Masonic lodge. I really can not see where you're going with this, at all. Are you serious? Ok I give up. you are not interested in discussion or debate.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 18, 2007 21:50:29 GMT
We go out about once a month with a Group of these neighbors. Quiz, Talent Night, Show that sort of thing. My wife and I enjoy going to Trivia Nights (and often win). One of the friends we call upon to make up a team is a lesbian (she is good with geography and science questions). Her orientation is fairly conspicuous, yet no one has ever joked or made disparaging remarks about her sexuality in our presence. Well great, but lets not pretend Gays do not have problems in some areas of society. There are always exstremes of conduct. What I am saying is Male Craft , Female Craft and Co Craft are no different. There is good and there is bad. There is love and there is jealousy and rivalry.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 18, 2007 21:52:02 GMT
no one has ever joked or made disparaging remarks about her in our presence. How true Phillip she should be admired for her honesty and courage - mmmm ideal Masonic aims So because she is gay and goes to quiz night she is brave and honest ? I dont get it.
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Post by leonardo on Oct 18, 2007 21:56:11 GMT
Bill, what a preposterous comparison to make between your social group setting and a Co-Masonic lodge. I really can not see where you're going with this, at all. Are you serious? Ok I give up. you are not interested in discussion or debate. Actually, I am very interested in debate but I sometime find your approach/logic difficult to appreciate. I know you make some good points, in fact, I have agreed with many of them, but occasionally, as in this case, I just don't get it.
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Post by whistler on Oct 18, 2007 22:10:21 GMT
How true Phillip she should be admired for her honesty and courage - mmmm ideal Masonic aims So because she is gay and goes to quiz night she is brave and honest ? I dont get it. No Bill Not because she went to your Quiz Night - But because she believes in her self enough to present her self where ever she goes as the person she is.. and not care if some old folk snigger at her because of her sexual orientation
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 18, 2007 22:24:10 GMT
Well whistler I dont agree.
People, all of us have to put up with sniggers and comments, some are ugly like me, some are fat some are skinny and so on. There is no special "Jim'll fix it badge" for Gays. And I bet they dont want one, I would like to ask the lady Phil was talking about.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 18, 2007 22:30:28 GMT
Ok I give up. you are not interested in discussion or debate. Actually, I am very interested in debate but I sometime find your approach/logic difficult to appreciate. I know you make some good points, in fact, I have agreed with many of them, but occasionally, as in this case, I just don't get it. Then if you dont get it, may I suggest that using words like preposterous is not the correct approach, please explain would have been better. These are important points and if they are discussed and a decent atmosspere is created you may find that some benefit will come of it.
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Post by whistler on Oct 18, 2007 23:07:07 GMT
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Post by maat on Oct 18, 2007 23:31:05 GMT
The tongue of good report is the only thing our lodge worries about.
Maat
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 19, 2007 1:07:48 GMT
whistler I have no idea what if anything you wish to add to this dicussion other than spoiling it.
Perhaps when you have an original idea or even an original sentance you will PM me so I dont miss it.
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Oct 19, 2007 6:22:14 GMT
It looks to me like the answer is that as a corporate body all masonry has the same foundations, those foundations don't make any comments about sexual orientation so it isn't grounds for santioned refusal. However, individuals are quite often at variance with what the guidebook says, and some masons may see someon in a same sex relationship as being morally corrupt (I hasten to add this is NOT my own personal POV) and make a decision based on what their personal feelings are as opposed to what the organisational principles are.
So to me the answer is that there is no problem, reservation or proscription from the GL, but the individuals are another matter. As a wise man once said, Freemasonry is a great institution, unfortunately there are humans in it.
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Post by leonardo on Oct 19, 2007 7:58:15 GMT
Well Bill, I do believe your comments were indeed preposterous, but if you wish to enlighten me as to why they are not then please feel free to elaborate.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 19, 2007 10:24:33 GMT
No, not worth the effort to elaborate on something you have already concluded is worthless.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 19, 2007 10:41:45 GMT
Bro Bill, all I will say is this. By its very nature the Ethos of Co-Masonry is INCLUSIVE. That being the case if a person is suitable on the other Criteria to become a Member then their Race, Nationality, Colour, Creed, Biological Sex, Gender Alignment, Social Class, Political Affiliation - are all irrelevant. So if a Homosexual or Lesbian applied to be Initiated into one of our Lodges it would not be an issue.
Now we are NOT plaster saints and there may well be amongst those who range under our banners, some who do harbour prejudices on the above grounds. To date I have not met any and as we are a far smaller organisation than UGLE I have probably met a good cross-section of our membership.
I do have to say, with all due respect, that your example of the group attending a Trivia Quiz each week is not that relevant as the dynamic is different. I have also found in life that those who do not like Homosexuals and Lesbians are not usually motivated by jealousy but by fear of the unknown and some atavistic revulsions built into many people when the have to deal with such people.
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Post by leonardo on Oct 19, 2007 10:49:10 GMT
No, not worth the effort to elaborate on something you have already concluded is worthless. Now. come on Bill, you know full well I was on about the comparison you were making between CFM and some social gathering of your mixed friends. That to me is preposterous. I am not saying you are preposterous, I actually hold you as an individual in very high regard, just your analogy in this instance doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 19, 2007 11:00:57 GMT
Thank you Bro. Steve for taking the question and replying seriously.
Of course that is what I was looking for, you say the dynamic is not the same. Well of course I would not know, I have attended many social gatherings but not a co Masonic meeting. So to answer Loe's critic at the same time how do you find out unless you ask. And I knew you would probably catch on to the dynamics question.
But I cant accept in full that my Group is not at all relevant, becuse Co Maons like all Masons are not apart or seperate from the rest of the world, they are the same peoples. with the same faults and the same gifts.
I can accept however that the dynamics within a group can be different. Not superior but different.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Oct 19, 2007 13:20:52 GMT
If the question had been asked even a mere 25 years ago, perhaps the reply may have been a little different given both social values and legislation that may have been in place at the time.
Presuming that the local legislation does not prohibit homosexuality (or left-handedness, or vegetarianism, or whatever other abomination of human orientation or personal preference), there would be no reason why either men-only, women-only, or co-Freemasonry should even enquire into one's sexual preference or orientation.
...what does sexual preference have to do with Freemasonry in any case? (or for that matter, whether a person is left or right handed; or sings with a soprano or alto voice; or prefers to wear yellow or blue underwear!?)
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 19, 2007 14:57:09 GMT
Absolutely correct jmd, I ask questions where there is a basis for discussion, well at least I think so.
I use it often but its always worth repeating, you don't solve issues by not talking about them.
Only 40 years ago, and it was at least 20 years before it became spoken about openly. so please don't give me this, oh its all right they are brave to be gay nonsense.
Gay people are just they same as everyone else no better no worse. But you cant dismiss the cold hard fact , 40 years ago in this country it was illegal. Men were sent to Prison for being Gay, or to be precise for homosexual acts. As the word Gay had not been invented at this time. Which means that anyone over the age of 55 would have been raised being told that being Gay was wrong.
Now taking into account that the majority population of UGLE would be over 55 we can see there may still be some residue from those early years.
You are all telling me that this would never happen in Co Masonry.
It is so easy to sound very popular on these forums saying how lovely Gay people are and how they should be accepted by all without question. But life is not that simple. Real life is scruffy and untidy.
So, some think I am being preposterous, some small minded, some gay bashing. But you have been made to think and from that thinking if one gay person gets an easier time then it has all been worthwhile.
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