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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 20:01:09 GMT
I especially like his outline of beliefs: We hold true to these beliefs:* That all human beings are endowed with certain inalienable rights* That peace and harmony among human beings is only possible where there exists a separation between church and state* That absolute freedom of conscience is an essential element in the pursuit of happiness among all peoples* That all human beings are created equal and that equality is fundamental to democracy and freedom. This is a paraphrase of the Declaration of Independance,with elements from Thomas Jeffersons letter to the Danberry Baptists and the Constitution. The same as when they were the "United Grand Lodge of America", although in that case they plagerised almost the entire document of the Declaration inserting "Masonry" and "Masonic" occasionally. I had kept an open mind up until I read that. That's when it became clear that there was little substance behind the symbolism. His reluctance to post anything of substance is telling in and of itself. Lofty ideals are fine, real world workability is another matter. You kept an open mind. You must really think that we fell off the turnip truck yesterday. I can say it one more time keep your own opinion about us. Go ahead and walk the path you want to walk. that is A Ok with us. No one is trying to convert you, sell you, represent you or anything else. Have a great time. Just don't think that myself or anyone else is going to change thier minds or go away just beacuse you desire it. Bullying make work on the other forums you are on Maximus. No need to sweat that. God Bless, www.grandorientusa.org
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 28, 2007 21:21:14 GMT
(very heavy sigh)
None of this matters.
Not really.
Beneath the hot words remains what does matter, regardless of how much you ignore it: The GOotUS, or whatever it calls itself, will succeed ONLY if it moves forward and leaves behind what it claims it will not be. It's not a matter of all the other GLs in the world letting you go (which, so far as I can see, they are only too happy to do); it's about you letting them go. For until you do, you will remain with what you won't leave behind.
And the longer you remain there, the more mired in it you will become. It is quite clear, already, that your organization's entire reason for being is to take pot shots at other GLs. Instead of recognizing your equality to them and going about your own business, we see you: - Treat other GLs and officials in those GLs with disrespect and complain about your perceptions that they don't respect you - Criticize the Masonry of those other GLs in their own quarries while your quarries remain idle - Wish death and destruction on Brothers in other GLs and, at the same time, accuse them of bullying and harrying you - Dismiss and disparage anyone who cries foul about any of the above
Do you not see the pattern here? That you are becoming what you claim you are leaving behind?
I gotta tell you, that comment about standing by while a wrecking ball hits a building in which Brothers are known to be still makes me shudder. If this unMasonic rhetoric is to be considered normal for your jurisdiction, then I wonder what your deeds must be like. And that I've witnessed some of those deeds . . .
I will continue to watch and hope for the best for you. But until y'all stop tearing at the Masonry of others and start working on your own, even my best hopes for you will be in vain.
And as you dismiss me as justs another "not friendly", I do hope it will sink in, somehow, ,that I'm actually talking to you. And I'm whispering to you counsel that others may well think but not say. And the truth I am telling you must be dealt with - or not. And the future of the GOotUS will depend on how you deal with it. Or not.
Good luck.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 21:50:04 GMT
(very heavy sigh) None of this matters. Not really. Beneath the hot words remains what does matter, regardless of how much you ignore it: The GOotUS, or whatever it calls itself, will succeed ONLY if it moves forward and leaves behind what it claims it will not be. It's not a matter of all the other GLs in the world letting you go (which, so far as I can see, they are only too happy to do); it's about you letting them go. For until you do, you will remain with what you won't leave behind. And the longer you remain there, the more mired in it you will become. It is quite clear, already, that your organization's entire reason for being is to take pot shots at other GLs. Instead of recognizing your equality to them and going about your own business, we see you: - Treat other GLs and officials in those GLs with disrespect and complain about your perceptions that they don't respect you - Criticize the Masonry of those other GLs in their own quarries while your quarries remain idle - Wish death and destruction on Brothers in other GLs and, at the same time, accuse them of bullying and harrying you - Dismiss and disparage anyone who cries foul about any of the above Do you not see the pattern here? That you are becoming what you claim you are leaving behind? I gotta tell you, that comment about standing by while a wrecking ball hits a building in which Brothers are known to be still makes me shudder. If this unMasonic rhetoric is to be considered normal for your jurisdiction, then I wonder what your deeds must be like. And that I've witnessed some of those deeds . . . I will continue to watch and hope for the best for you. But until y'all stop tearing at the Masonry of others and start working on your own, even my best hopes for you will be in vain. And as you dismiss me as justs another "not friendly", I do hope it will sink in, somehow, ,that I'm actually talking to you. And I'm whispering to you counsel that others may well think but not say. And the truth I am telling you must be dealt with - or not. And the future of the GOotUS will depend on how you deal with it. Or not. Good luck. Wow Brother Karen I have to admit I am downright shocked by your stance. It seems to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that you would rather Champion a system where you are thought of and treated as a fake, a pretender than a system that treats you as an equal and a Freemason. It boggles the mind. "- Treat other GLs and officials in those GLs with disrespect and complain about your perceptions that they don't respect you - Criticize the Masonry of those other GLs in their own quarries while your quarries remain idle - Wish death and destruction on Brothers in other GLs and, at the same time, accuse them of bullying and harrying you - Dismiss and disparage anyone who cries foul about any of the above" Now this, pardon me is pure party line rubbish. We DO NOT CARE what other GL's think of us. We do not really take heed to thier disrespect. Now as men and as citizens of planet earth we do get a little touchy at the lack of human respect. But I do not feel this is unreasonable. We have not accused anyone of anything. If you think any different I will apologize. Perhaps a lack of comprension, not our stance on issues is leading to some misunderstanding? We wish death and destruction on NO ONE. In fact we strive for the universal advancement of the brotherhood of all mankind. Your words are unjust and an apology on your part should be issued. No one needs to cry foul or anything else about us. Disagee with us, hate us, burn us in contempt. Good for you. Do what makes you happy, that is our stance. God bless you Karen.Brad www.grandorientusa.org
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Post by therondunn on Nov 28, 2007 22:07:34 GMT
This post has been removed deliberately since it appears that fair treatment is not available here
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 22:16:49 GMT
AMEN! I see that on becoming a master mason you have indeed become a better person. Well thought out, well commented. Good job brother. (very heavy sigh) None of this matters. Not really. Beneath the hot words remains what does matter, regardless of how much you ignore it: The GOotUS, or whatever it calls itself, will succeed ONLY if it moves forward and leaves behind what it claims it will not be. It's not a matter of all the other GLs in the world letting you go (which, so far as I can see, they are only too happy to do); it's about you letting them go. For until you do, you will remain with what you won't leave behind. And the longer you remain there, the more mired in it you will become. It is quite clear, already, that your organization's entire reason for being is to take pot shots at other GLs. Instead of recognizing your equality to them and going about your own business, we see you: - Treat other GLs and officials in those GLs with disrespect and complain about your perceptions that they don't respect you - Criticize the Masonry of those other GLs in their own quarries while your quarries remain idle - Wish death and destruction on Brothers in other GLs and, at the same time, accuse them of bullying and harrying you - Dismiss and disparage anyone who cries foul about any of the above Do you not see the pattern here? That you are becoming what you claim you are leaving behind? I gotta tell you, that comment about standing by while a wrecking ball hits a building in which Brothers are known to be still makes me shudder. If this unMasonic rhetoric is to be considered normal for your jurisdiction, then I wonder what your deeds must be like. And that I've witnessed some of those deeds . . . I will continue to watch and hope for the best for you. But until y'all stop tearing at the Masonry of others and start working on your own, even my best hopes for you will be in vain. And as you dismiss me as justs another "not friendly", I do hope it will sink in, somehow, ,that I'm actually talking to you. And I'm whispering to you counsel that others may well think but not say. And the truth I am telling you must be dealt with - or not. And the future of the GOotUS will depend on how you deal with it. Or not. Good luck. The dedication to spite by the supposed "enlightened" is unreal. [i ]"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." [/i]-Jesus Christ That quote has never been more important than by illustrated by the past weeks events. One more time: The Grand Orient of The United States wishes no ill will on anyone. We do not seek to convert anyone. We do not seek the destruction of any institution. We do not depend on any other group for our own self determination. " Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend." Bruce Lee www.grandorientusa.org As
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 28, 2007 22:18:43 GMT
I have to say that I haven't seen Devoutfreemanson (Bro Brad)calling for the Death and Destruction of his opponents, but it may be that I can't see it for looking.
What I do see is that he ends his posts with "God Bless XXXXX" to those that have traduced him, which is a damn sight more than I would ever do in similar circumstances!
We all have strong views on topics such as this, and being real people not Disneyland Characters we can sometimes give vent to them, that is part of being human and not "Plaster Saints".
My own feelings, and given I would add from a purely individual and personal basis are, Good Luck to G.O, of the USA, and may Heaven aid their United Endeavors.
I do not imagine that the Grand Orient of France would grant affiliation to a group of Freemasons unless it was satisfied as to their bona fides.
Perhaps it would be better to leave them to develop as they will. No doubt the various Brethren thereof who post here will keep us informed from time to time as to their progress.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 28, 2007 22:25:23 GMT
Bro. Karen, would you care to highlight where the destruction of fellow Masons was stated by Bro. Brad?
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 28, 2007 22:35:30 GMT
In as much as Bro. Brad is doing the cutting and pasting thing, then I have to assume he in also bringing in not just what he, personally, has done but also what others in this group have done. And they have done much.
As for citing it . . . it's all here posted at MFOL. And elsewhere. I'm afraid I don't have the archiving skills others here have. But I can reference the various posts here by various and sundry members of and influential BB in GOotUS. And activities and posts elsewhere.
This most of all strikes me:
Let me get this straight: I can, in no way, tell you the truth and support you at the same time? Uh, I never bought into that destroy-the-village-in-order-to-save mentality. So you'll excuse me if I don't buy into it now.
My post stands. If you choose to see it as not supporting your cause, then I humbly submit you should read it again. For I have told you the truth. And the future of the GOotUS depends on how you deal with that truth. Or not.
None of the rest matters one little jot in the face of that.
Take it as you will. It remains what it is, regardless of how it's misinterpreted. And it is *all* I have to say on the matter.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 22:44:22 GMT
In as much as Bro. Brad is doing the cutting and pasting thing, then I have to assume he in also bringing in not just what he, personally, has done but also what others in this group have done. And they have done much. As for citing it . . . it's all here posted at MFOL. And elsewhere. I'm afraid I don't have the archiving skills overs here have. But I can reference the various posts here by various and sundry members of and influential BB in GOotUS. And activities and posts elsewhere. This most of all strikes me: Let me get this straight: I can, in no way, tell you the truth and support you at the same time? Uh, I never bought into that destroy-the-village-in-order-to-save mentality. So you'll excuse me if I don't buy into it now. My post stands. If you choose to see it as not supporting your cause, then I humbly submit you should read it again. For I have told you the truth. And the future of the GOotUS depends on how you deal with that truth. Or not. None of the rest matters one little jot in the face of that. Take it as you will. It remains what it is, regardless of how it's misinterpreted. And it is *all* I have to say on the matter. Well, I guess I have seen it all. good luck to you Karen. You can love us, or hate us but (witch you appear to) DO NOT misrepresent us or our positions. You are a Brother to me, even if you are a fake and a pretender to those who you defend. Hey, there where loyalists during the American Revolution as well. The Crow proved loyal to Custer. The choice is yours. I hope you are happy and that the G.A.O.T.U. guides your decisions. God Bless, Brad www.grandorientusa.org
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Post by leonardo on Nov 28, 2007 22:47:22 GMT
As for citing it . . . it's all here posted at MFOL. And elsewhere. I'm afraid I don't have the archiving skills overs here have. But I can reference the various posts here by various and sundry members of and influential BB in GOotUS. And activities and posts elsewhere. I have had a quick look but searching skills are letting me down for I can't find the reference you mention either. If someone is to be to accused in this manner it's always helpful to offer some sort of confirmation.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 22:49:03 GMT
I changed the post for harmony. I do not understand one Co Masons such supreme contempt for a group who actually holds comasons as Masons. I am just really confused at these revalations Brother.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 28, 2007 22:51:34 GMT
Oh man, the mainstream anti Co-Mason- Co-Mason. It will snow in Hawaii tomorrow. Does anyone else feel that is Bizarro world? Forgive me Bro. Brad but I don't follow.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 28, 2007 22:53:27 GMT
Well, I guess I have seen it all. good luck to you Karen. You can love us, or hate us but (witch you appear to) DO NOT misrepresent us or our positions. Nope. I love you, every one of you. Dissent is not disloyalty. (tremendous eye roll) There is NO "us" and "them". I do not tell you the truth to *anyone's* detriment. And the fact that I'm still talking to you, still trying to reach you, indicates that I do give a [unacceptable language deleted] what happens to you. If I did, indeed, hate you, I would be quiet and would not at all warn you to any of this. And you strike me for it? Puh. It is what it is. And may He open your eyes to the truth before it is too late.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 22:55:52 GMT
Well, I guess I have seen it all. good luck to you Karen. You can love us, or hate us but (witch you appear to) DO NOT misrepresent us or our positions. Nope. I love you, every one of you. Dissent is not disloyalty. (tremendous eye roll) There is NO "us" and "them". I do not tell you the truth to *anyone's* detriment. And the fact that I'm still talking to you, still trying to reach you, indicates that I do give a rat's arse what happens to you. If I did, indeed, hate you, I would be quiet and would not at all warn you to any of this. And you strike me for it? Puh. It is what it is. And may He open your eyes to the truth before it is too late. I have never rolled my eyes at you. The rolling of eyes forecasts contempt. Seriously,what truth are you talking about? Also how has the Grand Orient been untruthful? Seriously? Brad www.grandorientusa.org
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 28, 2007 23:03:25 GMT
(deep breath)
My Brother, my post stands. It was not easy for me to write it, I have no energy remaining to restate it. Try to read it again, particularly those passages where I urge you and others in the GOotUS to leave behind all those things you don't want to be. Just leave it there. Don't take it with you.
You mention my being a Co-Mason. It is relevant. Perhaps. For while I cannot speak for my jurisdiction (truly, I can't), you *could*, perhaps, learn a lesson from those who took me in when no other jurisdiction would have me. They don't try to throw elections. There is not one complaint on their website about how other GLs act or treat them. They do not disparage the work of Brothers in other GLs, regardless of the quality of their work. Their minds are on their own work, their own ashlars.
And so your minds must be. For I promise you, your work will not succeed unless your focus is on where you are going; not from where and what you've freed yourselves.
And whatever you think of me, or anyone else, that is the truth.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 23:10:46 GMT
(deep breath) My Brother, my post stands. It was not easy for me to write it, I have no energy remaining to restate it. Try to read it again, particularly those passages where I urge you and others in the GOotUS to leave behind all those things you don't want to be. Just leave it there. Don't take it with you. You mention my being a Co-Mason. It is relevant. Perhaps. For while I cannot speak for my jurisdiction (truly, I can't), you *could*, perhaps, learn a lesson from those who guide me. They don't try to throw elections. There is not one complaint on their website about how other GLs act or treat them. They do not disparage the work of Brothers in other GLs, regardless of the quality of their work. Their minds are on their own work, their own ashlars. And so your minds must be. For I promise you, your work will not succeed unless your focus is on where you are going; not from where and what you've freed yourselves. Seriously, what are you talking about? If you think our focus is not on where we are going you have a problem with comprehension. We have all been stating for days now that we do not wish to convert, influence, change, divert or kidnap anyone. We are going to go our way, and that is it. Where others go is up to them. We are not claimig superiority, supremacy or anything of the sort. We just want to be left to do what we do. Frankly, we do not need crap from others "like yourself" who are on the outer fringe of the mainstream. Don't you get enough sand kicked in your face? All we did to you was extend the hand of Brotherhood and treat you as an equal Mason, and you acted in a inacceptable manner. That is on you as an indivdual , not us, or your obidence. May you think before you act in the future. Good Luck and God Bless, Brad www.grandorientusa.org
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imakegarb
Member
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Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 28, 2007 23:13:52 GMT
I stopped reading after the word "crap".
I tried. That is all that is required of me, though I did try very hard.
I'm gone from this thread.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 28, 2007 23:17:11 GMT
I stopped reading after the word "crap". I tried. That is all that is required of me, though I did try very hard. I'm gone from this thread. Don't forget to leave your apology for totally disrespecting a fellow Brother and his GL at the door. God Bless, Brad www.grandorientusa.org
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 28, 2007 23:50:40 GMT
Perhaps Brad you would care to heed your own advice.
For your own sake and for the sake of the principles you admire and zealously defend, please get off this defensive fence.
Others will not agree with you get used to it.
You may not believe it but some people even have the nerve to disagree with me. Ridiculous I know but it does happen.
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 28, 2007 23:59:01 GMT
Bro Brad. So I can get this clear in my head, can I take it that Grand Orient of the USA recognises Co-Freemasonry? Following on from that am I also correct that you will NOT be Initiating Women into your Lodges but will allow Women Freemasons to visit which situation I understand to be the case with Grand Orient of France? Bro Leo. The reference to "Bizarro World" relates to DC Comics Superman. In those stories the Bizarros where imperfect replicates of Superman with similar powers. The Bizarros however had everything in reverse to normal people, to them for example a day with pouring rain was lovely , a bright sunny day was horrid etc, Gold was rubbish but domestic trash was of great value etc. No doubt there was some allegorical meaning to this but as a kid of ten I didn't pick up on it. Have a look at this www.answers.com/topic/bizarro-worldThe reference to snow in Hawaii is self explanatory I feel.
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