|
Post by a on Sept 16, 2006 9:03:37 GMT
Lee, I agree with you. There will always be some problems within an organisation of such size, but if the system was that bad then surely the numbers would be reducing at a very fast rate. We all have gripes and groans regarding some aspect of our own organisations but it is nothing on the scale that Stewart seems to think it is. MrM I would be the happiest man on earth if I was wrong. The trouble is, even amongst the posters to this forum, you will find those who privately at least confirm the darker side.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 16, 2006 9:21:57 GMT
I would be the happiest man on earth if I was wrong. The trouble is, even amongst the posters to this forum, you will find those who privately at least confirm the darker side. I can't help wondering why they're doing it privately when they are members and have this Forum to proclaim it from the rooftops. M
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Sept 16, 2006 9:32:34 GMT
Perhaps they don't want to jeopardise their "Honours" if what they say offends their PGM or the "Powers that be" ?
|
|
|
Post by a on Sept 16, 2006 9:33:42 GMT
MikeM
Various reasons - here is one that was publicised I think on tfm some years ago.
One UGLE Mason I can't recall which one, a regular poster I remember, was somewhat embarrised by his lodge who in Lodge one day detailed his forum activities and recommended that he stopped posting. And I don't think that he was all that critical on forums.
It will be in tfms archives.
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 16, 2006 11:58:24 GMT
I have to say Stewart I have been running forums for about 6 or 7 years, I have never had anyone say anything to ma at all.
Maybe they dont know I do it ? Naaaaaaaaaaagh that cant be right.
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Sept 16, 2006 12:06:29 GMT
Perhaps they feel they would not get a sympathetic hearing from you? The Latin phrase "Surdo fabulam narras" comes to mind. Stewart on the other hand has the reputation of being a good listener and one who is independent as he is not a member of any Masonic group, and by his own words does not wish to join any. People may therefore feel that he is "one to whom the burdened heart may pour forth its sorrow" ?
|
|
|
Post by a on Sept 16, 2006 12:13:43 GMT
Bill
there have been many many Freemasons on this forum and on tfm who have expressed and detailed their issues, over the years. These have ranged from frustrations, through confirming that various Masonic powers have tried to restrict forum postings, to physical assault in a Lodge - as in fisticuffs not a ritual. And lots in between - consider Andrew, and Agent Smith if you remember him. It took the Irish Chains to sort his lodge issues out I seem to remember. There has been lots and lots detailed on forums that you are aware of Bill - if you would just open your eyes and your heart to the suffering of your brothers.
By remaining blind to what you have read over the years, and by denying it, you are I think in a way belittling your own brothers and actively enabling darkness to maintain its grip. Open your eyes Bill.
I am more than happy for this issue to be discussed in meetings but I would insist that those with the power to enforce Masonic discipline were not only present but willing to apply Masonic law where need be. Perhaps then those who have suffered will find the inner courage to step forward once again, recount their horror stories and help Freemasonry find what is wrong and sort it.
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 16, 2006 13:50:08 GMT
Well if anyone is trying to restrict forum posting , they are doing a pretty rotten job.
I have never witnessed any physical argument in any Lodge. I would like to hear if anyone else has. I have come close to thumping a few , but it never actually happened.
Sorry I am not aware of substantiated claims of abuse. There may well be some but of the ones I have been asked to investigate. I have turned up no evidence of masonic abuse of anybody.
The problem or asset of Forums is that you can type what you like and you can use what name you like. The claims have to be reported and investigated.
No one has ever closed my eyes Stewart, if any Brother thinks I am belittling him please speak up . I will depart without another word.
Now you know full well that UGLE Grand officers and committees are not going to subject themselves to a meeting held by an outsider. Nor should they. If however you have specific complaints I am happy to champion a move for them to be investigated. I have done this before and as I said they was no proof available to substantiate the claims.
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Sept 16, 2006 14:31:46 GMT
I too have never seen nor heard of abuse be that physical or verbal within a Temple itself. Nor have I seen any physical violence in the bar or elsewhere on Masonic premises. I have however read of such occuring and have no reason to doubt the words of the Brother who stated this, but I have no independent corroboration thereof.
What I have heard and myself experienced is non physical bullying. I was myself subject to it on two occasions, being bawled at in the bar over another very new Brother's minor breach of protocol by his coming into the bar still wearing his MM's Apron. He had only been a Mason for a short time and was Raised at that very Meeting, only the third he had attended, so was unaware of the ettiquette in such matters. In any event it was a very trifling matter to say the least and ought to have been resolved by the Member in question having a quiet word in his ear. On another occassion I was phoned at home early in the morning before I went to work by another Officer of that Lodge demanding that I attend a Meeting which I had already agreed with then then WM I would not be attending. I told him where to get off! I had also seen that same person act in a very abrasive manner towards other Brethren who had given of their best in their Office but perhaps had not been word perfect or had made mistakes.
That having been said I do agree that the vast majority of Freemasons I have encountered over the last 18 years have been decent and good mannered and a pleasure to have met! There does however seem to be a problem, albeit a minor one at present. Other Organisations, Local Councils, Employers, even the Armed Forces etc have had to change their management methods etc to comply with the new attitudes in life. 35 years ago when I started work a Manager or Foreman etc could give an employee who was late , slow in their work, or in some other way unsatisfactory a verbal "bollocking" and that was considered acceptable. These days they would be in deep trouble themselves should they do so and they have to adhere to guidlines and proceedures regarding Discipline in the Workplace etc. Perhaps some of those who do "bully" in the Masonic situation are of the old school , especially those who did National Service in the 1950s, and need to be appraised of the newer and gentler attitudes?
I accept that Stewart does go on about such matters but instead of sweeping him under the carpet , should we perhaps accept, however unwillingly, that he may just have a point in some of what he says?
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 16, 2006 15:01:10 GMT
Fair enough Steve yes we should listen, he looses me when this mysterious darkness comes into play.
Wherever I go I see some form of bullying. I accept that can be a problem, but it is by no means restricted or inherent in Freemasonry. I would say it is less in Masonry than I have observed elswhere.
All I am saying is if there is a problem lets have a look see if there is something that can be done to put it right. Lets put it right.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 16, 2006 15:51:58 GMT
I accept that Stewart does go on about such matters but instead of sweeping him under the carpet , should we perhaps accept, however unwillingly, that he may just have a point in some of what he says? I would be more willing to accept his possible point if I was ever to see him once give way to the fact that he may well be blowing out of all proportion one or two instances of each of his "causes". The majority of respondees affirm that they have never seen or been involved in most of the issues that stewart champions but that appears to have no effect on Stewart's particular stance. Steve, I feel the "honours" comment is beneath you. I doubt that someone who had been on the receiving end of the sorts of things we hear about is going to have any interest in "honours" any more. M
|
|
|
Post by a on Sept 16, 2006 16:27:52 GMT
All I am saying is if there is a problem lets have a look see if there is something that can be done to put it right. Lets put it right. Excellent!! However you are not as far as I am aware in a position where you can where need be apply Masonic Law and discipline or guide as appropriate. Should the new Grand Secretary wish to tackle these problems I will give him all of the assistance I can, if he wishes it and can convince me that he will effectively act and not just be seen to be doing something. If not, you can sort it quite easily yourself. Go back through the forums over the years, find the publicly declared problems, then work out the whys and the hows and make amends. Make things right Bill. You could always start with the chap who was assaulted in Lodge, and had to leave that lodge as it was family controlled I think from memory. This is typical - not the assault bit - but the injured party being the one that suffers while the bullies strengthen their position. After all if it really is not a problem it should only take you five minutes. But if it is be prepared to discipline some very long serving and possibly well connected people. You may find that you actually need to declare an amnesty for past actions, with applying Masonic law justly for new events as they arise. Anyhow Bill I am not going to fight you. You have clearly stated that you can't accept me telling you how to make things better. Fine. I will leave and let your harmony prevail.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 16, 2006 17:38:26 GMT
However you are not as far as I am aware in a position where you can where need be apply Masonic Law and discipline or guide as appropriate. Should the new Grand Secretary wish to tackle these problems I will give him all of the assistance I can, if he wishes it and can convince me that he will effectively act and not just be seen to be doing something. Bill is in a far better position than you Stewart but he is not in the position of these people who could write to the Grand Lodge or their Provincial Grand Lodge with their problems. Which is of course what I would do if I had ever come across something that I felt was (as you portray) "institutionalised". This is I think the biggest reason why you attract such negative responses, it isn't a problem with Freemasonry it is one or two individuals (to your knowledge, albeit third-hand knowledge) not with UGLE or Freemasonry in general. M
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 16, 2006 18:54:34 GMT
All I am saying is if there is a problem lets have a look see if there is something that can be done to put it right. Lets put it right. Excellent!! However you are not as far as I am aware in a position where you can where need be apply Masonic Law and discipline or guide as appropriate. Should the new Grand Secretary wish to tackle these problems I will give him all of the assistance I can, if he wishes it and can convince me that he will effectively act and not just be seen to be doing something. If not, you can sort it quite easily yourself. Go back through the forums over the years, find the publicly declared problems, then work out the whys and the hows and make amends. Make things right Bill. You could always start with the chap who was assaulted in Lodge, and had to leave that lodge as it was family controlled I think from memory. This is typical - not the assault bit - but the injured party being the one that suffers while the bullies strengthen their position. After all if it really is not a problem it should only take you five minutes. But if it is be prepared to discipline some very long serving and possibly well connected people. You may find that you actually need to declare an amnesty for past actions, with applying Masonic law justly for new events as they arise. Anyhow Bill I am not going to fight you. You have clearly stated that you can't accept me telling you how to make things better. Fine. I will leave and let your harmony prevail. Stewart every Freemason is in a position of informing the correct authority should he be aware of any impropriety within Freemasonry. I have and will continue to make it known that I will be vocal should the need arise. I agree wholeheartedly with Mike, each of us has a responsibilty to enforce what rules there are in freemasonry. There is absolutely no reason why the Grand Secreatary should ask for your assitance Stewart unless you have some information that would be pertinant to a particular case. Stewart I have had non 'Masonic contacts' come to me and ask for help in purseueing what they termed Masonic interference by local individuals. I did what I could to move that forward. Three times now this has happed. When you run these sites everyone seems to think you have a direct line to God. Of Course you dont, but I am quite good at making people listen. If there is something wrong in Freemasonry, I want it to be found, as do every other Mason that I have evr encountered. I have no concern over how long serving , they perform under the same rules as all of us. If they do wrong they are letting the rest of us down , not the other way round. I would not suggest that there should be any kind of amnesty, I believe that there would be so few that would be rather silly. I have already said in the above post , we should listen to what everyone has to say on the subject of Freemasonry. Please dont mistake hard debate for any disregard for your opinion. I hope that what I say strengthtens your resolve to assist others. But I ask for an informal meeting with disgruntled masons , we cant do that because ....... I ask for those who have a grievance to let me know , I will do what I can to help. But I have to go search for some posts ....... Now if there is a problem let those who have the problem say so. Its not my job to go off in search. Please undertsand what I am saying, not to hurt or harm but to bring you closer. You seem to most of us like a man who has never kicked a ball in his life, then applies for the England Managers job. You have a great deal to offer stewart, but it s safe outside, you dont have to face the real issues outside, the mundane day to day niggly silly things that might well cause a problem or two. Come inside out of the cold spend a few years in and then you will speak with a firm but humble confidence , which [ putting my esoteric hat on] all Freemasons look for in a Brother.
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 16, 2006 20:22:32 GMT
Existing rules from BOC UGLE on misconduct at least the least boring ones.
Rule 179A (f) It is the duty of every Brother to comment or
provide information in relation to a complaint or
allegation of misconduct (whether such complaint or
allegation is made against him or another Brother or a
Lodge) if so required by any Metropolitan, Provincial or
District Grand Master, Grand Inspector or the Board of
General Purposes.
180. If any Brother behave in Lodge in such a manner
as to disturb the harmony of the Lodge, he shall be
formally admonished by the Master and, if he persists in
his irregular conduct, he shall be punished by censure or
exclusion for the remainder of the meeting, according to
the opinion of the majority of the members present, or
the case may be reported to higher Masonic authority.
184. (a) Any Masonic question, dispute or difference
other than one coming under Rule 181 or Rule 182 which
cannot be settled between the parties to it shall be
reduced into writing and delivered as follows:
(i) If arising in, or in connection with a
member of, a Lodge in a place where no Metropolitan,
Provincial or District Grand Master has jurisdiction to
the Grand Secretary, who shall lay the same before the
Board of General Purposes.
etc. etc.
|
|
|
Post by wayseer on Sept 17, 2006 0:41:50 GMT
Please undertsand what I am saying, not to hurt or harm but to bring you closer. You seem to most of us like a man who has never kicked a ball in his life, then applies for the England Managers job. You have a great deal to offer stewart, but it s safe outside, you dont have to face the real issues outside, the mundane day to day niggly silly things that might well cause a problem or two. Come inside out of the cold spend a few years in and then you will speak with a firm but humble confidence , which [ putting my esoteric hat on] all Freemasons look for in a Brother. Bill, you may not agree with Stewart, that's OK but what you wrote here is inappropriate. I personally take it as a put down - in that anything I might say is framed within the metaphor that 'I have never kicked a football', that 'I have to come in from the cold', that 'I don't face the real issues'. Wow! You make a lot of assumptions. Please tell me what all these metaphors mean? Or are you saying that because I have not been a Brother for X number of years my concerns don't matter. I'm beginning to understand the ugly side of FM. I have personally raised what I see as 'problems' on FM fora. The response does not encourage me to make any further representation as you advocate. In fact, I suggest that much of what I have experienced, including your patronising statement above, is designed to scare off any one who might find there may be, just may be, problems within FM from making any such statement at all. Whether Stewart, or I, may be proved right or wrong is not the issue. Stewart has certain feelings which are genuine. I have feelings which again are genuine. Rather than telling us to 'get a life', to use my metaphor, perhaps those of us who do have 'problems' might be first of all acknowledged and then perhaps we might be listened to. I don't know about Stewart, but I accept that any problem that I might raise will not be fixed - indeed I expect it will probably not be 'fixed' - but I do expect to be listened to and my problem is acknowledged and some attempt is made to understand my issues. You may have addressed you comments to Stewart but your message is universal in nature which is why I comment. Enforce silence is not harmony.
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Sept 17, 2006 8:02:20 GMT
Bro Wayseer, I know Stewart, have met him several times and I can personally say that he is a good listener and a very sympathetic person, perhaps a bit too "full of the milk of human kindness" for his own good in this hard and materialistic world.
He has been asked to join Freemasonry, both the UGLE and Amity Malecraft, and Co-Masonry , but for his own reasons declines to take up such invitations and I respect his wishes in that regard.
Sometimes it takes an outsider to see problems where those on the inside either choose to ignore them or have become used to such situations and can no longer see them. There is I'm afraid a tendency to pretend that all is ok if one has not personally heard nor seen the problem.
I have sometimes found Stewart to be annoying but welcome his comments and hope that someone in a position and with the power to act will take some note and at least investigate them.
Perhaps as a start the Board of General Purposes at UGLE ought to consider drawing up and issuing a guidance document "Conduct within the Craft" aimed primarily at DCs and LOI Preceptors but for all Brethren regarding their interaction with other Brethren and openly condemning Bullying and Intimidatory behaviour , Verbal and Physical. Most employers and other organisations now have a Code of Conduct built into their Contract of Employment and Staff Handbooks and sanctions up to dismissal are in place for those who breach these Rules. What may have been acceptable to the WW2 and National Service Generation now dying out is certainly not to the Baby Boomers such as myself far less to Generation X, and if Freemasonry fails to attract and to retain these younger members it will surely atrophy.
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 17, 2006 9:17:44 GMT
Bill, you may not agree with Stewart, that's OK but what you wrote here is inappropriate. I personally take it as a put down - in that anything I might say is framed within the metaphor that 'I have never kicked a football', that 'I have to come in from the cold', that 'I don't face the real issues'. Wow! You make a lot of assumptions. Please tell me what all these metaphors mean? Or are you saying that because I have not been a Brother for X number of years my concerns don't matter. I'm beginning to understand the ugly side of FM. OK if I have been vague I apologize. I have been speaking to Stewart for a number of years now. I have learned that a slight nudge or a soft word has no effect whatsoever. so I try to be Graphic. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with freemasonry. It has to do with not listening. Presuming to know better than others. Stewart is not a Freemason, I believe in his heart he is. But it is inappropriate for anyone who is not a Freemason to advise or Lecture to those who are. It would be like me going into a fishing club and telling them how to catch fish.
OK you can say the way I use words is wrong, but most here know I am trying to help not hinder. You will note the lack of posts telling me off. So far yours is the only one.
Well an on line forum is a place where a problem may be discussed, but to have any movement within Freemasonry you must follow the rules in place. If you can find anyone who has done more than me to promote on line discussion of problems I would like to meet them. So the concept that I am trying to run you off is not valid I would say. I am still talking so are you. Stewart will be back soon and he can have his say. I have no power on this forum at all. Just a keyboard. If you would like what ever limited help I can give I have already said I will help.
With regard to being listened to Stewart has made 1565 posts I have only made 606 at this time. He has the same ability as i and you. He is not restricted in any way. Indeed we have listened many , many times, but in the listening there is nothing that says I have to agree.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying OK lets organize a meeting and see what can be done, I am saying OK lets hear what disgruntled Masons are saying lets discuss what the problem is.
You see my problem - silence - we cant do this because , we cant do that because -- so the facts do not support your complaint . No one is trying to shut you up.
I am a strong debater [ no jokes please ] so I agree my words can sometimes come across aggressively. That is not my meaning, I am sorry if you or Stewart have been offended. But if we are talking of physical abuse, bullying and other misdemeanors, you must undergo examination of the facts. If you cant get past me, your right nothing will change.
To win an argument you must have all your facts organized and ready for presentation. If not your just wingeing , which you have every right to do.
Of course. Yes they are. The problem I have is over the years I have listened to many a complaint. To date not one has gone past the safe environment of the internet 'identity free' zone of a forum like this.
I have had people send me leters about Masonic police harrassing them. Masonic Judges being far to harsh and more. All these have been reffered to the police complaints Authority. But in a report style manner.
If there is a problem within Freemasonry I would like to see it rooted out. However if you wish to make a complaint , you cant go all wobbly kneed when it comes to facts and figures.
|
|
|
Post by wayseer on Sept 18, 2006 6:44:54 GMT
Collateral damage Bill. I apologise. My remarks should not have been directed at you for the very reasons you express.
My remarks are directed at all the lurkers out there in virtual reality land who read these posts nod their head in that knowing way and wizz off to the next thread to see what's happening. Better that reality TV. I suspect that some, perhaps many, are members of various GLs who are now busy sussing out who is against what and how do we (read GL) isolate the trouble maker.
No one can tell me that GL is in any way ignorant as to what is going on at various levels of the Incorporation - opps, sorry, the Craft. They know but fail to act because they also know that they can hide behind those bollock rules waiting for some 'official' complaint in order to drive home the wedge and prove to the complainant that it is he who is in the wrong - harmony and all that. The result - nothing gets down - and that's how the chaps at HQ like it - no trouble from the ORs please.
Which is, I suggest, understandable. Whistle blowers are not the flavour of the month. Rather, what is relied upon is the hard copy of the minutes of Lodges duly passed and promogated which are highly sanitised for the sake of harmony.
Bill, I wrote a piece on another forum as to my thoughts of FM in the years of my absence from the Craft. You may have read it. Since my return I am rather depressed at what I witness - the symbols mean little or nothing - the ritual is followed but at most times with a lack of conviction - there are cliques - and then all those bollock rules. Where, Oh where is the search for Truth? Where is the unlocking of mysteries? Where is the respect for the traditions of the ancients?
Maybe I'm missing something - like I'm on the wrong train. Is it just me who feels these things?
|
|
|
Post by maat on Sept 18, 2006 7:07:13 GMT
Where, Oh where is the search for Truth? Where is the unlocking of mysteries? Where is the respect for the traditions of the ancients? Right here Wayseer - welcome home Maat
|
|