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Post by mrmason on Sept 18, 2006 7:23:49 GMT
As I little bit of info, the proceedure in GLoS is that any PM can apply to be voted on to Grand Committee, which basicly governs the Scottish Craft. A PM can get 2 members of Grand lodge/Committee to propose and second them for election to Grand Committee. Their names are then put on the ballot form which is given to everyone who attends the communication at which the ballot is held. The term on G Comm is approx 3 years with a total of 48 elected members(not including the GM, Past GM's, PGM's etc) with approx 16 being up for re-election /or not, every year. You also need to be a member of GLoS before being allowed to stand for Grand Committee. This can be achieved by applying to be a Proxy member of one of our lodges in another country. This gives you membership of GLoS which in turn allows you to stand if you so wish. In explaining this long winded senario it is very easy for any complaint to be taken to G committee if need be. Although we too have certain proceedures that must be followed but it gives the brethren a chance to have their say at GL level.
Is such a system in place at the UGLE or is it a closed shop?
From what I'm told our new Grand Sec is very keen to have more younger members involved at GL level. Not taking away anything from our senior members but I think he wants GLoS to move with the times by involvoing perhaps, younger fresher ideas.
Having said before I live close to the border and come into contact with many English freemasons and I have to say that very little if nothing is said regarding the running of the UGLE. Most, if not all that I know, are happy to run with the way things are.
I too have respect for Stewart in his ideas/opinions, which we are all entitled to but I don't think he has a full prospective of the whole organistaion in England. An example being that I know of one lodge near me in that almost every member has no time for our PGL . This however is a seed known to have been planted by an upset PM years ago and it has been allowed to grow. These members have never had any dealings with our PGL but they constantly slate PGL off and put it down. While this might not be a good enough example it does show that peoples ideas can be swayed to others thinkings.
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 18, 2006 7:40:45 GMT
"Is such a system in place at the UGLE or is it a closed shop?"Sadly no, Mr Mason, there is no such Democratic process in UGLE and I doubt that there ever will be in my lifetime. It is an oligarchy.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 18, 2006 7:45:46 GMT
I see no disrespect, I really don't. Every man, woman and child, will take away a different impression from every story told. It does not matter if its the Bible the Best Seller or a Cook Book. Each will relay a different interpretation on the TRUE meaning of that Book or that Story. This is human nature.
What your looking for, or what it seems your looking for, is that every Freemason reads the ritual and walks away with your interpretation. That is not going to happen.
I have nurtured men through the offices and through to Master of the Lodge, each has taken something different. Most originally said , I cant do that, I'll never get to be Master.
I have seen disabled, dylexic, speech impared and just plain dopey make it through those chairs. For me that is enough of a Miracle.
Some may remember I reported on a guy who had a severe stroke, but with only a limited ability to say words made it through , opening and closing. It took a long time. After, for a few years, he was going to quit Masonry. I am pleased to say he did not leave, we met again a couple of Months ago and he is doing great. Hes getting round better, not recovered but has made a small improvement. He will tell you how much it meant to him to just complete an opening and closing of a Lodge. What is just as important is that his Lodge sat silent and waited for this to be completed. I can tell you I wept.
To me these things are little miracles.
My worry is that you guys spend so much time on hidden mysteries you forget to look at what is right in front of you . As Stewart said " in ful view".
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Post by wayseer on Sept 18, 2006 11:50:06 GMT
What your looking for, or what it seems your looking for, is that every Freemason reads the ritual and walks away with your interpretation. Oh dear - I hope that is not the impression I've created. What I would be interested in is their intepretation - which is one of the things I enjoy about the forum - at least there is 'some' discussion. OK Bill. What is it that I'm missing - what is it that 'right in front of me'. What I see in front of me is lots of symbols which have lots of meanings which are sometimes referred to in the ritual all of which stretches back many thousands of years. What I also see is some masons, most mason I suspect, making light of these symbols and treat the whole things as a boys own club. I must be thick - I'm sorry I just don't get what it is I should be.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 18, 2006 14:02:01 GMT
Your certainly not thick, anyway thats my trick. you certainly picked up on that one, it usually gets the sympathy vote.
I am not saying your wrong. You take what it gives you and you go on.
I have to say that I personally found the Royal Arch to be quite moving. I was in the desert digging and working rebuilding solomons Temple. Did it matter to me that no one had ever proved the Temple existed, No of course not. I could smell the atmosphere, I could hear the chinking of hammer on rock.
But for another it means little, just another fee to find every year.
One of the main tenets is keep working the ritual and completeing you jobs with a good heart and by a natural tendancy it will enlighten you. No quick fix, but a slow grinding stairway to more understanding. More comprehension. More tolerence of yourself.
The greatest Holy Grail of them all, the knowledge of yourself. Master the demons named enmity, jealousy and rage to start. The other minor one will soon be vanquished.
I dont have all the answers, I do know that the Lord moves in ways we are not able to understand.
I find Freemasonry in many things, here is a little competition. where does this come from, try to answer without Google.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 18, 2006 22:25:22 GMT
One of the main tenets is keep working the ritual and completeing you jobs with a good heart and by a natural tendancy it will enlighten you. No quick fix, but a slow grinding stairway to more understanding. More comprehension. More tolerence of yourself. Thank you for those words - I see what you mean. Ha Ha Ha ... Good one Bill. (No. I'm not telling - others can go find the reference themselves) And I'm not changing my avatar either. But you make a good point - maybe FM is the only good role model around. Perhaps that IS the role of the Craft. Something to think about. A worthwhile topic for another thread methinks. Thanks for your sharing your thoughts Bill.
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Post by waynecowley on Sept 19, 2006 11:49:43 GMT
Found it too
Almost prepared for the 1st degree - save for a couple of holes in appropriate places
Wayne
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Post by tor on Sept 20, 2006 11:28:45 GMT
I ve read through the debate and made some thoughts...
Even a FC like me understands that Masonry ,surely, was NOT created for Eating, drinking / FB, if the Rituals esoteric side is forgot or misunderstood and the meal is the main thing, then the whole Meaning obviously is lost ! (even though it might be very nice) Maybe you have even misunderstood Jesus´own metaphores with fish, bread and wine... Any true Masonic person would find other ways of socializing, instead of using the lodgemeetings for this, I believe. Just follow your heart!
So where are the true seeking individuals going to do Their duty, if in the Lodge they can not find the right enviroment?
Also I wonder why not Masonry has forgot a thing or two, when elsewhere in society , most things seem to have moved away from its original concepts. Look at the music industry, how artists now are depended uppon their good looks and luxurius lifestyle, opposite to a beutiful voice or skills with an instrument. (False Idols)
And also in the clothing / fashion world, where the latest (stupid) look is more importent than functionality... Can not theese currents also be reflected in Masonry nowadays?
Can these be reasons why society in general is degrading? or havent you noticed ?!!!
As Masons we are supposed to maintain the love and prosperity initiated by T.G.A.O.T.U, not to destroy, still I beleive. (Thoughts of a new Mason) Tor
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Post by wayseer on Sept 20, 2006 11:55:10 GMT
Tor, Hello and welcome to the forum.
Yes, for a newly passed FC things must seem a little upside down. I have only returned relatively recently to the Craft aeftr years of absence and I'm trying to work things out. So join the club.
How you make you way within FM will be something you have to work out. Me, I ask a lot of dumb question and stick my oar into things - which sort of seems to work. Others advocate the sit and wait method.
Oh, Yes - it's been noticed. What you are say, in another way, is that there has to be some congruence between the principle and the application - between what is said and what is lived - between the ritual and the practice - between the Lodge room and the work place - between high ideals and personal behaviour.
The problem is how to take the lessons from the ritual and put them in daily practice. It would be easy if we lived in a cave - alone. But most of us don't so we live our life surrounded by others. The trick is living the principle while up to your neck in the muck of everyday living. To get a better idea of what I'm talking about you might do a Google search as Bill urged for me to do a couple of posts back - it's worth a look.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 20, 2006 12:16:07 GMT
Good stuff here.
I am a simple minded man. I look around and , yes, there are things I dont like , dont approve of. But I can only control my little square meter of the universe. I do it the best way I can. I believe freemasonry helps me to converg on those attributes that help me to do this.
If you want to improve the music industry then you need someone who can sing like an angel and is so good it does not matter what the hell he looks like.
If you want to improve the fashion scene then you have to find someone with similar qualities.
Or they will stay the same as they are now. The question is can we do anything to change that?
The one thing in this world that you have complete control over is yourself. As was said in previous posts, make a temple honourable to the builder.
if we traveled to a far eastern monestary we would find monks chanting and looking for the meaning of life. If we ventured to Isreal we could find people in synagogue chanting prayers. Why is this/ becuase for contemplation and consideration a repetitious re enactment of a single theme has been proven to stimulate the mind.
And remind me what do we do in masonic ritual , anyone, - anyone ?
Without the human spirit you have nothing to work with, improve that spirit and ther is nothing you can not achieve.
But my entire point is , there is no magic doorway, no shortcut. Work and dedication will bring its own rewards.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 20, 2006 12:59:40 GMT
Bill said:
Very well said Bill. Ultimately we are as individuals only really responsible for those things within our control and as long as we endeavor to do this we maintain a certain contentment.
It's a bonus if when we do good it influences others to do likewise.
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 20, 2006 14:56:16 GMT
Some good points there Bro Tor and food for thought.
When the first Lodges started to emerge in the early 1700s they ate and drank in the same room , usually in a pub, and indeed there are various Demonstration Teams which can be booked by Lodges who will re-enact a meeting of a Lodge in those times- well worth seeing!
The separate Festive Board was a later invention and instead of being a meal where the Brethren could relax and have something to eat and drink and chat after the work in the Temple which in those days may well have been both the confering of a Degree, and Speculative Discussion opf the deeper meanings of the Ritual -now almost an unknown feature, the FB has become invested with an almost Ritualistic aspect of its own with formulaic Wine Takings, Toasts etc. In contast the Scots have maintained a far simpler after proceedings, a Buffet style "Harmony" which I feel would be closer to the original concept.
There are those, I am sorry to say, to whom the Festive Board is more important than the Work in the Temple, and perhaps it is time that we considered if this banquet afterwards is really neccessary , except perhaps after Installations and other special meetings. Dropping it in favour of a buffet would both save time and money, both considerations in this day of other calls on a Brothers's time and pocket, and permit later starts but still allow older members to get home at a reasonable hour. It would be interesting to see who would no longer attend Meetings where there no FB afterwards.
In a way it is the same with the "Charities". What probably started as a whip round for the Lodge's Relief chest for Widows and Masons of that Lodge who were ill or had hit hard times, (no Social Security in those days), has burgeoned into the large Masonic Charities with all their overhead and infrastructure of today. As with the Festive Board should we consider getting "Back to Basics" in this regard as well?
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Post by mrmason on Sept 20, 2006 16:20:46 GMT
I think most of my lodge members see the Harmony as their refreshment after completing their work in the lodge. I was also informed recently that several lodges within our area are now having a buffet style meal at their Installations instead of a 3 course meal. This seems to be down to the brethren prefering this rather than a regimental style evening. There is a lot more interaction by the brethren when it is less formal. I personly believe that either in the Lodge, or the fellowship at the Harmony, or both, can provide something for everyone. Bearing in mind that several centuries ago the ritual aspect of the lodge was very short and nothing like the length of the degrees that we practise today. And as Steve says the Harmony was probably an important part of the meeting as well. Many early Scottish lodges only ever ate or drank to excess at their Annual St John's day meeting. This was a very special time for most lodges in Scotland considering that even large town lodges' such as Mary's Chapel No 1 only sat 2/3 times a year in their early days. This could also be akin to some of our modern day members who find the festive board/harmony an important part of their evening. Perhaps we're not too far removed for our brethren of past centuries after all.
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Post by maat on Sept 21, 2006 0:38:41 GMT
But don't you see? In many ways, the social conviviality and hospitality of the Festive Board (or Harmony as we call it) is where the real work of Freemasonry begins: cementing one man unto another in one great English bond of friendship and brotherly love. These virtues of love and fellowship are the Great Secret which Freemasonry tries to impart: by concealing what seems a very common and uninteresting thing under many layers of symbolism, the diligent craftsman may by the firm application of his intellect happen upon a hidden surface of hitherto-unsuspected beauty and lustre. A treasure without peer is in our grasp, a secret worth dying for. It is Love: divine, human; paternal, filial; and fraternal, encompassing all, endless and complete. ...on Love.. and Harmony.. and the work.. 'In the ordinary (conscious) state we have the observer and the observed,' he said. 'We have duality-and where there's duality there's conflict. In the transcendental state the observer and the observed become one. There is no longer duality, there's bliss. The thinker and the thought are one. The experiencing of "what is" without naming it brings about freedom from what is.' 'We live in a practical world,' I said. 'Surely a person reaching this state of bliss would turn into a vegetable, unable to cope with life as it has to be lived.' 'On the contrary,' said Krishnamurti. 'Such a person would be capable of true and creative action with love.' norea.net/krishnamurti/quietmind.htmAs Ruff observes - Communion, where-ever it happens, gives us an opportunity to arrive at a transcendental state where the observer (I) recognise the observed (my brother) as a real brother. It is when this observation is made that the saying "I am by brothers keeper" makes serious sense. It doesn't matter if the observed Brother does not recognise us. It doesn't matter! Are we going to pull down a school because some of the students don't understand some of the lessons? Maat
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Post by tor on Sept 21, 2006 8:40:57 GMT
I doubt alcohol (which i see at FBs) will help anyone reach that place of purity , rather the contrary.
I dont think it has a place in this picture, because it feeds the animal side of us. Systems have forever changed, can this be changed to the better? now? S&F
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Post by mrmason on Sept 21, 2006 9:05:41 GMT
"I dont think it has a place in this picture, because it feeds the animal side of us."
Only if taken in excess. The harmony/festive board, etc, (inc drink) has always been a part of british freemasonry. That place of purity might be reached by those brethren in the lodge room but not at the festive board. Who are we to dictate to others how or when they should reach "their" place of purity?
The whole point is that a dozen or so disgruntled brethren does not mean that the complete structure of the UGLE is falling down. There are plenty of brethren who fullfill their needs just by sitting quiet at the lodge meeting and then enjoying the festive board. Who are we to deny them this?
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Post by tor on Sept 21, 2006 13:09:17 GMT
But shall we close our eyes to the physical effect of alcohol (dehydration & lower oxygen level in the blood) because of traditions? Modern science can atleast shed light on some of our body´s chemical functions and reactions, wich we knew little of in the past centuries. After all oxygen & water is the primary fuel for your Machine/body/Temple. I dont want to continue my parents´ wrongs even if they lived them all of their life, atleast not after i ve been aware of it. I know a lot of people needs a drink to loosen up and get social, but that is more because of holes in our social-structures, and lack of selfesteem , pride, confidence, etc. GOD will provide this for you if your Temple is pure enough(physicly), and your intentions are good(metaphysicly), I beleive. And how far back shall we look, when we seek the roots of our systems? English, Scotish, French, Rome, Templars, Jesus, Solomon, Babylon, Egypt,Moses, Noah, Enoch !!! I sway towards Islam on the alcohol issue! ( I´m afraid). In my country alcohol is one of the biggest factors of disease.... (statisticly). and a burden to society in general. Any mason should always go forth as a positive example... Or am I getting to subjective on this...?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 21, 2006 13:37:31 GMT
Goodness tor I have a glass of wine with my meal not 15 pints of lager.
I am one of those that just does not drink much at all, I know many who are very much like me. We can if we want we just don't want to.
We cant say because a man . woman has a drink they are not able to understand the intricate windings of masonic progress. No more than you can say if I abstain I will understand more.
'A little wine for thy stomachs sake'. 'Water into wine', I can produce many more. So the notion of eating and drinking is not a modern concept surely. It has always been a gesture of Friendship and welcoming, of being a good host!.
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Post by mrmason on Sept 21, 2006 15:26:43 GMT
I'm with Bill on this one. We don't go out at every meeting and get plastered out of our faces, but a drink after our meetings is seen as part of our masonic social system. At the beginning of each meeting our RWM invites everyone to join him in some light refreshment and harmony in our local pub after the meeting.
No-one is forced to drink and some don't, but the concept of the harmony is to bond and to get to know the brethren, both members and visitors. We enjoy lighthearter banter with one or two drinks, while getting to know those visitors who turn up.
This is the part of the evening where you get to know about various issues regarding freemasonry, and as we all know, we can't, ( although some do) , chatter away in open lodge while the degree work is in progress.
In my lodge it is an important part of the evening as the younger brethren,(and experienced brethren) get to now more about the order and it's workings. Surely not every aspect of freemasonry has to be about a spitirual intervention, does it?
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Sept 21, 2006 15:28:29 GMT
Goodness tor I have a glass of wine with my meal not 15 pints of lager. 'A little wine for thy stomachs sake'. 'Water into wine', I can produce many more. So the notion of eating and drinking is not a modern concept surely. It has always been a jesture of Friendship and welcoming, of being a good host!. Don't forget in vino veritas!
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