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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 6:35:57 GMT
Yet again last night I found myself talking about Freemasonry to a man who wanted to know more. He tells me that while not being a mason he has several times been "asked to join", but he has never followed it up. But here is the thing, after discussing the traditional history and how he had been told by a masonic friend that all of the Egyptian stuff has nothing whatsoever to do with Freemasonry, he commented that he had been told when been asked about joining "not to worry about the ritual stuff, why - because it is the festive board that matters!!!!" Or something to that effect.
By no means is this an unusual conversation when I talk to people.
Bearing in mind that many fraternities don't have a festive board, does this not offer a little anecdotal evidence of what is "wrong with Anglo Saxon masonry" as someone famous once said?
Almost reminds me of the newly initiated UGLE Freemason who told me that he was sat down at the festive board to be told to forget about all that happens in the Lodge, the real Freemasonry starts "here" in the festive board. Knowing better he became disillusioned.
Perhaps UGLE could dispense with the ritual altogether, if so few apparently take it to heart? [in case of doubt that is not a serious suggestion].
Julian, Gnostic et all - is it just me that is saddened that ritual has apparently been relegated to the sidelines?
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Post by waynecowley on Sept 15, 2006 7:29:34 GMT
No Stewart it is not just you
I had a similar conversation yesterday with one of my very close friends who is the IPM of his lodge. To say that we were frustrated with the fact that so many seem to think that the Ritual is verging on mumbo-jumbo would be an understatement!
(and for the avoidance of doubt - whilst I do not rule the more fanciful interpretations out totally - I tend not to be too far on the esoteric side, believing that there is more of a moral/philosophical aspect to what we are exposed to in the Ritual)
Wayne
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Post by mike on Sept 15, 2006 7:54:57 GMT
My first thought was, why not invite him to join a Masonic Forum then he can talk to a wider range of Freemasons than he has already and get a more balanced opinion.
M
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 15, 2006 12:25:12 GMT
Stewart, i will answer this later but just because youve heard this from one person it doesnt mean that this is the norm.
I have never heard anyone talk like t his about the ritual.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Sept 15, 2006 12:30:19 GMT
But don't you see? In many ways, the social conviviality and hospitality of the Festive Board (or Harmony as we call it) is where the real work of Freemasonry begins: cementing one man unto another in one great English bond of friendship and brotherly love.
These virtues of love and fellowship are the Great Secret which Freemasonry tries to impart: by concealing what seems a very common and uninteresting thing under many layers of symbolism, the diligent craftsman may by the firm application of his intellect happen upon a hidden surface of hitherto-unsuspected beauty and lustre.
A treasure without peer is in our grasp, a secret worth dying for. It is Love: divine, human; paternal, filial; and fraternal, encompassing all, endless and complete.
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Post by pastmasterchris on Sept 15, 2006 12:58:07 GMT
No Stewart it is not just you I had a similar conversation yesterday with one of my very close friends who is the IPM of his lodge. To say that we were frustrated with the fact that so many seem to think that the Ritual is verging on mumbo-jumbo would be an understatement! (and for the avoidance of doubt - whilst I do not rule the more fanciful interpretations out totally - I tend not to be too far on the esoteric side, believing that there is more of a moral/philosophical aspect to what we are exposed to in the Ritual) Wayne Let us be honest, we all know that there are plenty of Knife and Fork masons who enjoy the Festive Board more than the meetings. But surely that is because they are enjoying the fellowship which belonging to a Lodge entails. I'm sure that just getting together for a meal and a drink at regular intervals might be nice but surely no more than that. If you take away the ceremonies I think they would soon realise that there was something missing from their festive boards. Perhaps the people who profess to enjoying the FB most are bored by the ceremonies or maybe feel excluded from the activites in the Lodge? I have always found that people gain different benefits from masonry. Some enjoy the social aspect, some enjoy getting involved in organisations, others love the ceremonies and will make every effort to learn the ritual. Others will look below the surface of the ceremonies for deeper meanings. I'm sure that there are more masons of the type to be found posting on these forums than there are of the knife and fork variety. S & F
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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 13:31:55 GMT
Staffs
Re read my post - I did not say that it was one person, I used one person as an example. Also try to remember my previous thread, either here on tfm, about circles of life. It is relevant.
Ruff
You as always bring a smile to my face.
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Post by Siontific on Sept 15, 2006 16:02:05 GMT
Stewart, On reading your post you have used TWO people as an example, of the 330,000 Masons or thereabouts in England. You then go on to suggest that this opinion applies to the whole of "Anglo-Saxon Masonry". It is very easy to be drawn to the negative view, particularly if you are looking to fault something. What is really needed are individuals who will work for the better good, to implement change, if it is needed. Like Staffs, I have never met anyone who has expressed the view that Freemasonry starts with the Festive Board and to forget everything else that happens in the Lodge You do sound like those politicians who expound their own or their parties view in the name of the British people when actually representing a minority opinion. However, I think Ruffashlar has a point. There are many different reasons why individuals enjoy Freemasonry but we all meet as one at the Festive Board.
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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 16:14:40 GMT
Yet again last night... .......By no means is this an unusual conversation when I talk to people.
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Post by mike on Sept 15, 2006 16:15:53 GMT
I'm with Ruff. Some people do join Freemasonry for the "fellowship" aspect rather than being attracted to the "esoteric".
I personally find it to be demeaning to refer to our Brothers as "knife & Fork" Masons, as if they were there for the meal they could eat cheaper and with better quality at most restaurants. Hence the fact that I refer to them as "Fellowship" Masons as that is why they are there.
M
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Post by Siontific on Sept 15, 2006 16:20:31 GMT
You're obviously talking to the wrong people Stewart.
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Post by a on Sept 15, 2006 16:30:32 GMT
Perhaps I am talking to the right people. Ex members, new initiates who become disillusioned after initiation, people thinking of joining, people who no longer attend.
Fortunately I am not trying to gain a political post, or win an election, or selling anything. Only encouraging thought in the hope that Freemasonry turns the corner. You will either take on board what I say incorporate it and benefit form it, or you will take it on board and ignore it, or simply just disbelieve it. That is your choice.
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 15, 2006 16:56:20 GMT
Stewart, I too have heard such remarks made by Knife and Fork Masons and can remember sitting in a Lodge at Brighton where I was a Visitor and the WM did the "Long Closing" . I heard two of them in front of me moaning in what they thought was a whisper about "These bloody Ritualists" as they were wanting to get to the bar.
That having been said I can see the wisdom in Pastmaster Chris' remarks and indeed a very wise VGO in London did say in a really good address he gave that we all put different things into Freemasonry and get different things back out.
I make no apology to anyone that I am very skewed towards the Ritual, Symbolical and Esoteric (or as somebody put it the Esso Terrific) side of Freemasonry and am not really all that interested in the Social or Charity side. I wouldn't thank you for a free ticket to a Ladies Night and whilst I'll chip into a Lodge Alms collection or appeal etc , when I want to give to Charity I do so to the big, well known recognised Charities which specialise in those causes which I support, or to some local community action. I don't need a Ritual Book or Regalia to do this.
There are those however who do derive great comfort and pleasure from the cameraderie of Lodge Meeting and for some elderly men, especially widowers, this may be their only outing in a month, and the chance to have a decent meal and some company. I certainly do not grudge them that!
Perhaps our American Brethren have the right idea, they have "Stated Meetings" where the Ritual and Degree Business of the Lodge is undertaken , and other Meetings of a more Social nature. Is this perhaps a compromise for UK Malecraft Freemasonry to adopt where both groups can be accomodated?
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Post by peterd on Sept 15, 2006 17:42:28 GMT
We discussed the knife and fork masons at Lodge LOI the other evening and a few said there are none. When I suggested that we should cancel festive boards and see what happens, there was a long silence and people said if that happened we would lose alot of good Masons!
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
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Post by giovanni on Sept 15, 2006 17:47:42 GMT
Semel in anno licet insanire
Once in a year it's permitted to act as fool. If the festive boards are the exception, they can be welcome.
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Post by mrmason on Sept 15, 2006 21:51:09 GMT
Stewart, As you are aware I am a member of the Scottish Constitution so your question may not apply to me. However I do read many of the posts here regarding most Constitutions and find them interesting. I do have one observation if you can call it that. IMHO you constantly seem to find fault in the system of the UGLE/British freemasonry at every turn. My own interpretation of your understanding of the british craft is that it is all "doom and gloom".
I too can't understand why you believe there is a problem when you havn't consulted all of the members of the UGLE before making such statements. While I am happy that my own constitution is fairing very well, (yes there will be some problems) I am at a loss as to why there is a need for you to constantly pick holes in the UGLE.
If a member wishes to enjoy the festive board more than the ritual then so be it. Who are we as members to tell them what they must or must not enjoy.
Sorry to be so abrupt but you come across as always being so pessimistic.
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 16, 2006 6:02:51 GMT
Bob,
Exactly WHO is it who finds fault with UGLE and constantly criticises them shouting from the rooftops that there is something wrong with the system and it has to change ?
Strangely enough you wont find many of us UGLE masons that can be put in this section.
The ones who are complaining about it are all non ugle masons or non masons.
You will find that all us UGLE masons are generally happy with the system and although some may find somethings in the system not to their own particular flavour ythen you will find them discussing it amongs themselves and with a view as to their own personal viewpoint.
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Post by mrmason on Sept 16, 2006 6:49:09 GMT
Lee, I agree with you. There will always be some problems within an organisation of such size, but if the system was that bad then surely the numbers would be reducing at a very fast rate. We all have gripes and groans regarding some aspect of our own organisations but it is nothing on the scale that Stewart seems to think it is.
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Post by a on Sept 16, 2006 8:44:15 GMT
Ok MrMason lets look at this Stewart, As you are aware I am a member of the Scottish Constitution so your question may not apply to me. However I do read many of the posts here regarding most Constitutions and find them interesting. I do have one observation if you can call it that. IMHO you constantly seem to find fault in the system of the UGLE/British freemasonry at every turn. My own interpretation of your understanding of the British craft is that it is all "doom and gloom". Not quite - I highlight the flaws that I come across as no one seems to have the inner courage to deal with them. It is my hope that in this time of change at he top of UGLE the new Grand Secretary and Grand Chancellor will have the b***s to face up to them and deal with them, for the benefit of Freemasonry. Remember that most of what I know comes from ex and disillusioned Freemasons, those who desperately want top be able to do Masonic Work but who are frustrated and stuck by the UGLE system, and those who have chosen to leave Freemasonry for one reason or another etc. Remember I have always said that I could be wrong. I accept taht people do lie, exagerate, two sides to every story etc, but ever since I moved to England, nearly two decades ago, in different environments in different parts of teh country, the bulk of what has come my way about Freemasonry has been negative. In my first twenty or so years in Scotland, general opinion that I came across was positive. MrM that is impractical. The funny bit though is what I have come to know from my sources is often confirmed to me to be accurate by current UGLE members. There is this undercurrent which accepts that things need to change but no one really wants to do it. As an example, consider Waynes recent post about his recent discussion with an IPM about the state of ritual appreciation in Lodges. See above. I agree as long as those people dont actively or passively prevent other Freemasons from doing The Work. And this sadly does happen as has been extensively discussed here in the past - ridiculing. I do what I am able to do, but my heart is full of hope that the fraternities can seize the moment and turn their fortunes around. But it will be hard on the egos for this to happen.
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Post by a on Sept 16, 2006 8:59:47 GMT
Bob, Exactly WHO is it who finds fault with UGLE and constantly criticises them shouting from the rooftops that there is something wrong with the system and it has to change ? Strangely enough you wont find many of us UGLE masons that can be put in this section. Could this be because those who do tend to find that they have to leave? Or ex UGLE Masons or even UGLE Masons who quietly hope for things to change. Some even post here. Then I guess that I get lied to more than I appreciate.
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