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Post by hollandr on Nov 20, 2007 22:57:38 GMT
I raised this on another thread but perhaps it deserves separate consideration.
How do we know that our thoughts are really ours?
A thought may be the result of:
- telepathy - mental substance left as residue from events in the area - an entity pushing structured mental substance into our mind - an entity that shares our mind with us (2 beings playing a console game on the same screen)
How would we know?
Can we rely on our mind and mental processes to tell us the truth?
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Nov 20, 2007 23:48:32 GMT
I am instantly thinking about cases of "a voice told me to do it" here.
Maat
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Post by hollandr on Nov 20, 2007 23:57:27 GMT
>cases of "a voice told me to do it" here.
Quite so.
But a voice is easily recognised as an intervention and thus any decision to comply is a relatively clear event
A thought emerging in the mind is commonly embraced as one's own and therefore does not always trigger a decision before acting upon it
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Post by whistler on Nov 21, 2007 3:15:15 GMT
I am instantly thinking about cases of "a voice told me to do it" here. Maat Maat - "the Voices do not tell you to do anything" they warn or suggest - but " tell no" - it is called freewil. If somebody says the voices told me to do it they are looking for somebody/something to pass the responsibility for their action to.l
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Post by whistler on Nov 21, 2007 3:20:00 GMT
Russell "How do we know that our thoughts are really ours?" How often your questions pose more questions. on just "Thoughts" and "ours" Our = which our the physical - spiritual ? Can you define Thoughts?
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Post by hollandr on Nov 21, 2007 4:17:36 GMT
Whistler
You are quite correct. Our use of the word "our" is based on an unarticulated view of what we are. Hence my image of 2 beings playing a console game on the same mind screen. We really have very little idea of the number of entities required to make up the lodge that is a human
And in addition there may be any number of "party goers" inside that aura busily playing at being human
Thoughts is more straight forward as a concept. I use it to refer to a conceptual or action impulse arising in the mental substance within the aura of the human. So I am really excluding the vague mental swirls and meaning moderately focussed mental events.
So how do we know when a focussed mental event is triggered by an being that belongs to the lodge of the human being?
And how do we know when the focussed mental event is triggered by a gate crasher?
And even if it is triggered by a "lodge member", is the member acting in the interests of the "lodge" or pushing a separate agenda?
Cheers
Russell
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Post by whistler on Nov 21, 2007 7:49:53 GMT
Whistler You are quite correct. Our use of the word "our" is based on an unarticulated view of what we are. Hence my image of 2 beings playing a console game on the same mind screen. We really have very little idea of the number of entities required to make up the lodge that is a human Russell I see Our thoughts in the our/your thoughts concept as being the result of a mix of influences both seen and unseen - the more we work with the unseen the more we come to recognize the origin and quality of such input Yes very true but again as we gain experience we find the non party goers control the party animals This is where Intuition and purity of intention comes into play This is where the unseen Masonic Guardians take control - In another thread we notice much unseemly Masonic comings and goings - you can be sure that if the hierarchy was happy with the way the Lodge was operating nothing would have been permitted to happen - instead chaos has been allowed to occur after which harmony will return with the Lodges in a different form.bodies Cheers Russell[/quote]
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Post by hollandr on Nov 21, 2007 22:54:53 GMT
Whistler
Generally I agree with you although I think that there are many pitfalls along the way
>if the hierarchy was happy with the way the Lodge was operating nothing would have been permitted to happen
Well that is probably true as a general principle and there have been times in group meditation in which an intervention has whisked us out of harm's way
But those higher beings are also governed by regulations (are regular). Thus opposing influences that exist in and on this planet may be given space to operate so that the human race make progress partially from its own efforts
In other words "not all those that cry Lord, Lord, shall be saved"
Cheers
Russell
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 21, 2007 23:16:06 GMT
All I can say is if anyone thinks any of mine I will get really annoyed. ;D
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 21, 2007 23:21:46 GMT
Don't worry Bro Bill you are totally safe there as far as I am concerned!
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Post by hollandr on Nov 21, 2007 23:58:10 GMT
>All I can say is if anyone thinks any of mine I will get really annoyed.
Bill
How do you know that your mind is not the screen for a console game by several players?
It is not altogether convincing to reply "my mind screen has just told me that I am the only player"
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Nov 22, 2007 0:44:22 GMT
I think a useful tool for deciding whether a thought is you own or not, is to expose the thought to day light.
What do you sometimes think that you know you would never do?
Why do you think it? Why wouldn't you do it?
Maat
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Post by whistler on Nov 22, 2007 0:54:15 GMT
Whistler Well that is probably true as a general principle and there have been times in group meditation in which an intervention has whisked us out of harm's way Russell I would say that when that happens the group is being shown the power of spirit and the quality opf you gate keeper
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Post by Antonius on Nov 22, 2007 1:03:08 GMT
I am instantly thinking about cases of "a voice told me to do it" here.
Maat lol that reminds me of an old George Carlin joke: "why is it these voices allways tell people to go kill somebody? why dont they ever say anything like 'go take a dump on the salad bar at wendy's'?" You are quite correct. Our use of the word "our" is based on an unarticulated view of what we are. Hence my image of 2 beings playing a console game on the same mind screen. We really have very little idea of the number of entities required to make up the lodge that is a human dont we? what about the jungian archetypes? the way i see it the inner and outer are one and the same, and so what is percieved as an external entity, can also be percieved as an internal entity, a jungian archetype, and both positions are equaly valid. so by internalising the problem one can easily formulate the question 'what am i in conflict about'. whatever answer works internaly, also works externaly. doing that the problem becomes expressed in very simplistic terms of ego vs will. whenever something is going off course, the problem is ego. submit the ego to will and the problems are solved. there are lots of examples of thoughts not your own. how meny people do u know who own a nikkei knive set, or some 'loose weight by electrocuting your stomech wile u sin on the cauch watching tv and eating junkfood' or something like that? the most effective way of planting thoughts in people is by catering to the ego. so looking at the problem in terms of ego, one can formulate the question: is this what i want, or is this my ego being threathened or seduced or whatever. if the answer is ego, then the thought is not my own. if the answer is will, then it doesnt matter anyways i think the key is knowing the difference between who we are and the masks we wear for the benifit of others. the better we understand the true self, the less likely we are to be swayed by any outside influence. '2 B or not 2 B, that is the Q'
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Post by hollandr on Nov 22, 2007 1:38:29 GMT
Antonius
There is much to be learned from Jungian archetypes.
I recall an account of Jung who, having had much trouble in the kitchen over some days, entered the kitchen and voiced an apology to the pots and pans for the difficulties
Was he talking to archetypes as an intellectual construct? Or was he recognising the pots and pans as having an elemental intelligence that needed to be appeased?
The difficulty I have with your assertion is that I myself and others have observed clairvoyantly the intelligences that interfere with humans and the etheric and astral structures used for anchoring in chakras and joints.
And the usefulness of those observations has been repeatedly tested by successful therapeutic interventions e.g. with a chronic malfunction of a hip joint, or a chronic depression
Thus I am not sure that the usual conceptualisation of an archetype is sufficient to deal with all those who suffer
Of course, often a precondition for successful treatment is a resolution of internal tensions. But often those tensions are a result of the interference and designed to allow the interference to continue.
For example, excessive use of a variety of drugs is encouraged by the interfering entities in order to render the victim more pliable
cheers
Russell
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Post by whistler on Nov 22, 2007 10:17:46 GMT
Russell taking up This is where the unseen Masonic Guardians take control - In another thread we notice much unseemly Masonic comings and goings - you can be sure that if the hierarchy was happy with the way the Lodge was operating nothing would have been permitted to happen - instead chaos has been allowed to occur after which harmony will return with the Lodges in a different form.bodies
What is your opinion of the esoteric goings on in the above mentioned Saga.
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Post by hollandr on Nov 22, 2007 11:47:20 GMT
Whistler
As usual there are various forces at work. The battle in the heavens proceeds on Earth and in humans as well
I would suggest as a general proposition that the spirit of Masonry has been pained for most of the last century by the constraint of the organisations it uses as a body.
And as the planetary Logos has recently undergone a significant change in consciousness, the human race has moved also. Thus I expect that many brethren are finding the old structures too much of a constraint and are pushing to express more fully the spirit of Masonry and the human spirit
This necessarily generates turmoil and agitates personalities most of whom hold strongly to their principles - whether they be conservative or progressive
The urge for new forms of course extends past Masonry into most aspirational movements including traditional religions
So from my perspective it is a time for tolerance and experimentation. Many experimental forms will fail, but progressively the race will learn and create new bottles for the wine of the New Dispensation
Cheers
Russell
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Post by Antonius on Nov 22, 2007 14:10:28 GMT
u think maybe this has something to do with chrystal meth spreading like wildfire amoung the stricter sects of christianity?
well thats what im trying to say, that the internal and the external are in fact one and the same.
what i ment is that one can internalise a problem, find a solution, externalise that solution and find that it works on external problems.
like if we look at the internal struggle inside us and express it in terms of will and ego, and then antrapamorphise humanity into an individual, we can understand why the world is the way it is.
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Post by wayseer on Nov 25, 2007 9:25:47 GMT
Bro Russell - I wonder is a little Buddhism might be appropriate here.
Meditation is widely misunderstood in the West. True meditation is the work one does with the mind in determining the source of conscious thought. Those who have undertaken this work, and it is work, learn that all thought comes via the sense organs - the mind being the sixth such organ. Our conscious state is clear like the sky. While clouds (thoughts) may cover the sky to such an extent that no sky can be seen, does not mean there is a reality beyond the clouds. Likewise there is a reality beyond toughts.
Can we rely on our mind and mental processes to tell us the truth?
Yes - if you undertake the work necessary to distinguish the difference between the clear Light and the 'clutter' which we generaly associate with reality.
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Post by hollandr on Nov 25, 2007 22:13:30 GMT
>True meditation is the work one does with the mind in determining the source of conscious thought
John
Meditation is of course critical to purifying the mind. And in the case of a mind that is contaminated by contrary intelligences (generally the case) the process is long and difficult,
For example, the intruding intelligences can generate fake spiritual experiences to keep the human happy for decades
In that situation the meditation needs to go beyond the mind in order to go beyond the intruding intelligences. This may be called a transcending meditation - it transcends the technique being used. Two of the symptoms of transcending meditation are rapid passage of time and a sense of "where was I?"
The primary contrary intelligence (provided to each human to assist in getting their act together) runs a disinformation campaign designed to convince (convaincre = conquer) us that it does not exist or it is us, or it is the Light
You may see symptoms of the last in many opinionated people. Hence my thread "What light is that?"
Cheers
Russell
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