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Post by happyzealot on Nov 25, 2009 20:05:30 GMT
Pseudo-humor response? More like passive-aggressive backpedalling.
Whenever Brad uses the word 'partisan' against Brothers (whose opinions differ from his) it's almost always in a dismissive or pejorative sense. It's a wonder that none of the mods or admins have commented on it yet. 'Partisans be damned' is an odd phrase indeed, joke or not.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 25, 2009 20:31:47 GMT
Pseudo-humor response? More like passive-aggressive backpedalling. Whenever Brad uses the word 'partisan' against Brothers (whose opinions differ from his) it's almost always in a dismissive or pejorative sense. It's a wonder that none of the mods or admins have commented on it yet. 'Partisans be damned' is an odd phrase indeed, joke or not. Lighten up HZ, where is your holliday spirit? ;D Partisan 1 : a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person; especially : one exhibiting prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance Now, I don't know you personally and you don't know me. Based on your posts I would say that definition represents your P.O.V. Wouldn't you? Happy Hollidays,
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Augur
Member
Travelling salesman. Roamin' profit.
Posts: 184
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Post by Augur on Nov 25, 2009 20:55:23 GMT
Partisan 1 : a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person; especially : one exhibiting prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance Now, I don't know you personally and you don't know me. Based on your posts I would say that definition represents your P.O.V. Actually, if there's anyone on this forum who seems to already have their mind made up about everything they post about in advance, have an agenda and constantly regurgitate canned talking points - it's you Brad. Just about everyone else here seems to merrily admit when they're wrong (at least on occasion) and entertain each other's ideas in a very open and civil manner. So who's the real partisan here? Once again I think you're revealing far more about yourself than anyone else when you sling these derogatory terms around. Each and every one of them seems to fit you rather soundly.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 25, 2009 21:02:48 GMT
Partisan 1 : a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person; especially : one exhibiting prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance Now, I don't know you personally and you don't know me. Based on your posts I would say that definition represents your P.O.V. Actually, if there's anyone on this forum who seems to already have their mind made up about everything they post about in advance, have an agenda and constantly regurgitate canned talking points - it's you Brad. Just about everyone else here seems to merrily admit when they're wrong (at least on occasion) and entertain each other's ideas in a very open and civil manner. So who's the real partisan here? Once again I think you're revealing far more about yourself than anyone else when you sling these derogatory terms around. Each and every one of them seems to fit you rather soundly. Oh I know, you admit you're wrong all the time "Augur." ;D You know what? Today you can throw all you can at me, it doesn't matter. Have fun, knock yourself out. Wooo hooo!! I am happier than a Make-A-Wish kid at Disneyland. ;D ;D ;D Happy early Thanksgiving!!
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Augur
Member
Travelling salesman. Roamin' profit.
Posts: 184
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Post by Augur on Nov 25, 2009 21:41:20 GMT
Oh I know, you admit you're wrong all the time "Augur." ;D You know what? Today you can throw all you can at me, it doesn't matter. Have fun, knock yourself out. Wooo hooo!! Oh, I'd have to be wrong first! ;D Hasn't happened yet, at least not here. But with only 50 posts, that's hardly shocking. Glad you're in a good mood! Enjoy your holiday! Take some time to reflect. You need it. Big hugs!
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Post by enki on Nov 26, 2009 12:53:16 GMT
When we're talking about Masonic, quasi, crypto or neo, let's remember this:
It is a matter of historic record that masonic impostors were identified to the larger fraternity through internal as well as public public means such as newspapers. Today we are largely marginalized from the general media, but we still do peg them within our GL-to-GL and lodge-to-lodge channels and, within a broader base, through the internet--which has basically, for our modern intents and purposes, replaced the printed circular.
While the Internet is a beautiful cocoon of virtual safety for the crafty, unwary and stupid, entire groups deemed as offering illegitimate goods for cash can still be tried in court for mail fraud. Buyer beware and hucksters be damned--by the law if it is pressed. See the McBain-Thompson trial for a great masonic example (even though it occurred 80 or so years ago). Still, many today are convicted of this crime.
Take heed, partisans who charge money for nothing: there is good hope that one should suss out their institution's substance and can, with evidence, successfully argue its lasting virtue--even if it humps onto another tradition (natch).
By the way, note that when one is a partisan, he is engaged in partisanship. If one wishes to use one or the other, then please endeavor to understand their proper usages both in the written word and in day to day life.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 29, 2009 20:38:09 GMT
When we're talking about Masonic, quasi, crypto or neo, let's remember this: It is a matter of historic record that masonic impostors were identified to the larger fraternity through internal as well as public public means such as newspapers. Today we are largely marginalized from the general media, but we still do peg them within our GL-to-GL and lodge-to-lodge channels and, within a broader base, through the internet--which has basically, for our modern intents and purposes, replaced the printed circular. While the Internet is a beautiful cocoon of virtual safety for the crafty, unwary and stupid, entire groups deemed as offering illegitimate goods for cash can still be tried in court for mail fraud. Buyer beware and hucksters be damned--by the law if it is pressed. See the McBain-Thompson trial for a great masonic example (even though it occurred 80 or so years ago). Still, many today are convicted of this crime. Take heed, partisans who charge money for nothing: there is good hope that one should suss out their institution's substance and can, with evidence, successfully argue its lasting virtue--even if it humps onto another tradition ( natch). By the way, note that when one is a partisan, he is engaged in partisanship. If one wishes to use one or the other, then please endeavor to understand their proper usages both in the written word and in day to day life. Anyone who promises and doesn't deliver on paid goods can be prosecuted. I am unaware of the AA&EF having this occur. So, it is up to the individual to decide what works for them right? Freedom of choice, that is what America is all about. Different streams of the Craft for different folks. Just like in religion, you don't have to go to the church down the street if they are not for you. Same with Masonry. Plenty of choices, plenty of options. If the individual improves themself through Masonry, and in turn their community why would that be a bad thing? I think some of you guys are very frustrated with the lack of universal Masonic law. Sorry about that. Love and Light,
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Post by enki on Nov 29, 2009 20:48:26 GMT
I don't believe in my post that I mentioned them specifically, nor will you find that I was implying anything about this group. I merely pointed out that history is rife with Masonic hucksters and frauds that have actually ripped people off. One will find there is little relativity in these cases whereby the accusations have been mere misunderstandings and persecutions. Is there something in particular about this that troubles you?
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 29, 2009 20:53:42 GMT
I don't believe in my post that I mentioned them specifically, nor will you find that I was implying anything about this group. I merely pointed out that history is rife with Masonic hucksters and frauds. Is there something about this that bothers you? History is just that. Masonic history is also full of visionaries (Yarker, Bessant etc.) who where villanized by the mainstream. Give a little credit to the seeker. I don't imagine that they are so easily duped. Love and Light,
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Post by enki on Nov 29, 2009 20:59:36 GMT
I don't believe in my post that I mentioned them specifically, nor will you find that I was implying anything about this group. I merely pointed out that history is rife with Masonic hucksters and frauds. Is there something about this that bothers you? History is just that. Masonic history is also full of visionaries (Yarker, Bessant etc.) who where villanized by the mainstream. Give a little credit to the seeker. I don't imagine that they are so easily duped. Love and Light, Very true. There are undoubtedly visionaries and many movements will have both hucksters and visionaries and some that are accused of being the former. This is elementary and not at all profound. Nevertheless, they will be condemned or exonerated by the fruit they bear. This process may take generations to suss out. While these scams are not epidemic, the do happen to the best of people, that's all I'm saying.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 29, 2009 21:41:28 GMT
History is just that. Masonic history is also full of visionaries (Yarker, Bessant etc.) who where villanized by the mainstream. Give a little credit to the seeker. I don't imagine that they are so easily duped. Love and Light, Very true. There are undoubtedly visionaries and many movements will have both hucksters and visionaries and some that are accused of being the latter. This is elementary and not at all profound. Nevertheless, they will be condemned or exonerated by the fruit they bear. This process may take generations to suss out. While these scams are not epidemic, the do happen to the best of people, that's all I'm saying. True, very good post. I feel you, all good. ;D ;D Love and Light,
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 30, 2009 12:00:28 GMT
The great thing about Freemasonry is that anyone can conjure up a website, call it a Lodge and profane public is none the wiser.
The unfortunate thing about Freemasonry is that anyone can conjure up a website, call it a Lodge and the profane public is none the wiser.
Someting Ive been thinking about lately that makes me happy to be a good ol' Antient is that we use technology (we now have a callem all phone system which sends out last minute trestleboard changes and additions), we have a web site (sorely in need of updating, but still...) and we've finally moved to making lecture presentations using a digitial projector with music attached to the secretary's laptop.
All of that to say what really makes me happy is that we enhance our Freemasonry with these things, but dont supplant it. Skype and tele-conferencing will never replace the absolute sense of peace and joy to be had sitting in a well-appointed Lodge on chairs that go back to the year of the Lodges charter, using the same altar used to consecrate the Lodge in 1855. While there is nothing wrong with renting a conference room in a hotel a few times a year to hold a Lodge meeting, nothing replaces having, as it were a "clean, well-lighted" place of one's own. While it must be grand to have members all over the world who use the above technology, in my opinion no amount of technology of any kind can replace the immediacy of being able to go visit a sick Brother, tend to his grieving widow or look after his children.
And Im happy to carry around a good ol' fashioned paper petition in my suit coat pocket or brief case to give to someone worthy of the petition process. I find myself saddened at the idea that there are ePetitions out there where the investigative committee never meets the candidate and for some of these "conference room Lodges" never might. I love wearing my ring as a sign to others that I am a proud member of the oldest fraternal order in the world.
If Freemasonry is about nothing else, it is about the divinity of human contact under the guidance of deity. Im happy that we old curmudgeonly Antients see that and place a premium on it above all else. I also like the fact that if someone sees the sign in our Lodge yard, or the carved "Masonic Temple" above the door, they know what that means and have some idea what it stands for. Some of the cut and paste "orders" will never experience this despite the irony that they seem to be trying to create a pseudo-Masonic "brand" even though may will never have any idea as to what the heck that brand stands for or why they would, in any way, want to be part of it. If someone questions that with us, then they can just literally knock on our Lodge door or leave a message on our answering machine (which still works on tapes, not digital recording).
There is something to be said for tradition. Im an extreme liberal politically, but to me, being a conservative Antient Freemason provides just the right balance in my life and so I say, Long may she live.
So Mote it be.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 30, 2009 16:53:46 GMT
The great thing about Freemasonry is that anyone can conjure up a website, call it a Lodge and profane public is none the wiser. The unfortunate thing about Freemasonry is that anyone can conjure up a website, call it a Lodge and the profane public is none the wiser. Someting Ive been thinking about lately that makes me happy to be a good ol' Antient is that we use technology (we now have a callem all phone system which sends out last minute trestleboard changes and additions), we have a web site (sorely in need of updating, but still...) and we've finally moved to making lecture presentations using a digitial projector with music attached to the secretary's laptop. All of that to say what really makes me happy is that we enhance our Freemasonry with these things, but dont supplant it. Skype and tele-conferencing will never replace the absolute sense of peace and joy to be had sitting in a well-appointed Lodge on chairs that go back to the year of the Lodges charter, using the same altar used to consecrate the Lodge in 1855. While there is nothing wrong with renting a conference room in a hotel a few times a year to hold a Lodge meeting, nothing replaces having, as it were a "clean, well-lighted" place of one's own. While it must be grand to have members all over the world who use the above technology, in my opinion no amount of technology of any kind can replace the immediacy of being able to go visit a sick Brother, tend to his grieving widow or look after his children. And Im happy to carry around a good ol' fashioned paper petition in my suit coat pocket or brief case to give to someone worthy of the petition process. I find myself saddened at the idea that there are ePetitions out there where the investigative committee never meets the candidate and for some of these "conference room Lodges" never might. I love wearing my ring as a sign to others that I am a proud member of the oldest fraternal order in the world. If Freemasonry is about nothing else, it is about the divinity of human contact under the guidance of deity. Im happy that we old curmudgeonly Antients see that and place a premium on it above all else. I also like the fact that if someone sees the sign in our Lodge yard, or the carved "Masonic Temple" above the door, they know what that means and have some idea what it stands for. Some of the cut and paste "orders" will never experience this despite the irony that they seem to be trying to create a pseudo-Masonic "brand" even though may will never have any idea as to what the heck that brand stands for or why they would, in any way, want to be part of it. If someone questions that with us, then they can just literally knock on our Lodge door or leave a message on our answering machine (which still works on tapes, not digital recording). There is something to be said for tradition. Im an extreme liberal politically, but to me, being a conservative Antient Freemason provides just the right balance in my life and so I say, Long may she live. So Mote it be. Whatever makes you happy. Love and Light,
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 30, 2009 18:07:29 GMT
Setting up a Masonic Forum is one thing. I run one. However I would NEVER even dream of considering it to be a Cyber Lodge. It's a Forum, no more no less.
Now could there be Cyber Lodges and should there be?
I agree that it needs a Meeting in a Lodge Just and Perfect to Initiate a Man or Woman who is of Good Report into The Craft and indeed to Pass, Raise, or Install them in The Chair. However, for those who are already "Made Masons" by such a process, whatever GL, GO or Obedience to which they may belong, a Cyber Lodge may enable them to at least to an extent enjoy the experiences of Freemasonry which may be lost to them by age, illness, financial problems etc.
I remember an old man who was on The Square and ending his days in a Care Home. He was lucid but could not get out owing to severe arthritis and double incontinence, so he could not accept my invitation to attend my Lodge. Instead I brought my Ritual Book, (I had seen his Grand Lodge Certificate and had proved him as an MM). Instead in his room alone, The Matron was happy to oblige, I held a pseudo Lodge Meeting correct in every detail with us both taking parts (I was a PM by that time), the look of joy on the old chap's face was priceless. When he died a few months later I attended his funeral , ensured the S&C were on the end of the coffin and placed a Sprig of Acacia on the coffin as it was committed to be creamated.
Now of course there were only two present, him and myself not the requiste three and this was not a Lodge Meeting as any GL etc that I know would accept as such. Nevertheless it made an old Masson very happy.
So perhaps we should not reject the idea of a Cyber Lodge out of hand any more than one should reject the televising of religious services such as Mass, Matins, Morning Service etc, a great comfort to those unable to attend Chapel, Church, Kirk etc.
Bear in mind the question "Where were you first prepared to nbe made a Mason?" In my heart! Not in a room, Temple etc.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 30, 2009 18:38:00 GMT
The great thing about Freemasonry is that anyone can conjure up a website, call it a Lodge and profane public is none the wiser. The unfortunate thing about Freemasonry is that anyone can conjure up a website, call it a Lodge and the profane public is none the wiser. Someting Ive been thinking about lately that makes me happy to be a good ol' Antient is that we use technology (we now have a callem all phone system which sends out last minute trestleboard changes and additions), we have a web site (sorely in need of updating, but still...) and we've finally moved to making lecture presentations using a digitial projector with music attached to the secretary's laptop. All of that to say what really makes me happy is that we enhance our Freemasonry with these things, but dont supplant it. Skype and tele-conferencing will never replace the absolute sense of peace and joy to be had sitting in a well-appointed Lodge on chairs that go back to the year of the Lodges charter, using the same altar used to consecrate the Lodge in 1855. While there is nothing wrong with renting a conference room in a hotel a few times a year to hold a Lodge meeting, nothing replaces having, as it were a "clean, well-lighted" place of one's own. While it must be grand to have members all over the world who use the above technology, in my opinion no amount of technology of any kind can replace the immediacy of being able to go visit a sick Brother, tend to his grieving widow or look after his children. And Im happy to carry around a good ol' fashioned paper petition in my suit coat pocket or brief case to give to someone worthy of the petition process. I find myself saddened at the idea that there are ePetitions out there where the investigative committee never meets the candidate and for some of these "conference room Lodges" never might. I love wearing my ring as a sign to others that I am a proud member of the oldest fraternal order in the world. If Freemasonry is about nothing else, it is about the divinity of human contact under the guidance of deity. Im happy that we old curmudgeonly Antients see that and place a premium on it above all else. I also like the fact that if someone sees the sign in our Lodge yard, or the carved "Masonic Temple" above the door, they know what that means and have some idea what it stands for. Some of the cut and paste "orders" will never experience this despite the irony that they seem to be trying to create a pseudo-Masonic "brand" even though may will never have any idea as to what the heck that brand stands for or why they would, in any way, want to be part of it. If someone questions that with us, then they can just literally knock on our Lodge door or leave a message on our answering machine (which still works on tapes, not digital recording). There is something to be said for tradition. Im an extreme liberal politically, but to me, being a conservative Antient Freemason provides just the right balance in my life and so I say, Long may she live. So Mote it be. Whatever makes you happy. Love and Light, My sentiments exactly.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 30, 2009 19:30:00 GMT
Setting up a Masonic Forum is one thing. I run one. However I would NEVER even dream of considering it to be a Cyber Lodge. It's a Forum, no more no less. Now could there be Cyber Lodges and should there be? I agree that it needs a Meeting in a Lodge Just and Perfect to Initiate a Man or Woman who is of Good Report into The Craft and indeed to Pass, Raise, or Install them in The Chair. However, for those who are already "Made Masons" by such a process, whatever GL, GO or Obedience to which they may belong, a Cyber Lodge may enable them to at least to an extent enjoy the experiences of Freemasonry which may be lost to them by age, illness, financial problems etc. I remember an old man who was on The Square and ending his days in a Care Home. He was lucid but could not get out owing to severe arthritis and double incontinence, so he could not accept my invitation to attend my Lodge. Instead I brought my Ritual Book, (I had seen his Grand Lodge Certificate and had proved him as an MM). Instead in his room alone, The Matron was happy to oblige, I held a pseudo Lodge Meeting correct in every detail with us both taking parts (I was a PM by that time), the look of joy on the old chap's face was priceless. When he died a few months later I attended his funeral , ensured the S&C were on the end of the coffin and placed a Sprig of Acacia on the coffin as it was committed to be creamated. Now of course there were only two present, him and myself not the requiste three and this was not a Lodge Meeting as any GL etc that I know would accept as such. Nevertheless it made an old Masson very happy. So perhaps we should not reject the idea of a Cyber Lodge out of hand any more than one should reject the televising of religious services such as Mass, Matins, Morning Service etc, a great comfort to those unable to attend Chapel, Church, Kirk etc. Bear in mind the question " Where were you first prepared to nbe made a Mason?" In my heart! Not in a room, Temple etc. Brother Steve, Thank you so much for such a heartwarming and inspiring story. We get a lot of flack from our opponents about being an "Internet" lodge. Even though we have specified on many occasions that all Ritual is done the old fashioned way, in person, in a lodge. Now is there value in a physical lodge building? Yes. It's also very expensive and when you're a self financed small order you have to prioritize. I would hate to think seekers fell through the cracks because we where unable to serve them due to depleation of funds. For myself, the only reason why I want to be in a lodge is for ritual. I don't care about traveling for a stated business meeting etc. I can do that function virtually. We have had Lodges of Instruction with international guests and members. For me, this is awesome. Our members seem to appreciate it as well. Love and Light,
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Post by mcovey on Dec 4, 2009 1:21:22 GMT
A lodge cannot be held virtually. There is no such thing as a cyber lodge. There can be Masonic educational nights or loges of instruction like you have. However, do not confuse that with an actual lodge meetings.
Though I am in a male only lodge, I appreciate there are women only and mixed lodges. Perhaps one day we will all have amity with each other. For now, calling a meeting over the internet a lodge meeting only hushes that day further off than it is now.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 8, 2009 2:28:05 GMT
When we're talking about Masonic, quasi, crypto or neo, let's remember this: It is a matter of historic record that masonic impostors were identified to the larger fraternity through internal as well as public public means such as newspapers. Today we are largely marginalized from the general media, but we still do peg them within our GL-to-GL and lodge-to-lodge channels and, within a broader base, through the internet--which has basically, for our modern intents and purposes, replaced the printed circular. While the Internet is a beautiful cocoon of virtual safety for the crafty, unwary and stupid, entire groups deemed as offering illegitimate goods for cash can still be tried in court for mail fraud. Buyer beware and hucksters be damned--by the law if it is pressed. See the McBain-Thompson trial for a great masonic example (even though it occurred 80 or so years ago). Still, many today are convicted of this crime. Take heed, partisans who charge money for nothing: there is good hope that one should suss out their institution's substance and can, with evidence, successfully argue its lasting virtue--even if it humps onto another tradition ( natch). By the way, note that when one is a partisan, he is engaged in partisanship. If one wishes to use one or the other, then please endeavor to understand their proper usages both in the written word and in day to day life. One of the interesting things I learned when working as an attorney's aide/paralegal in the field of criminal law was that the penalties for soliciting "funds for philosophy/mystery knowledge" over the internet or mail has several problems. If the US Postal Service is used it becomes not just a felony, but a federal felony in that it is considered mail fraud. Its also a federal felony if the internet is used and can be even more so if those who get taken are in a different state from the person running the scam. Even our beloved gentle Craft is not safe from internet charlatans, huxters and snake oil salesmen.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 8, 2009 2:30:50 GMT
A lodge cannot be held virtually. There is no such thing as a cyber lodge. There can be Masonic educational nights or loges of instruction like you have. However, do not confuse that with an actual lodge meetings. Though I am in a male only lodge, I appreciate there are women only and mixed lodges. Perhaps one day we will all have amity with each other. For now, calling a meeting over the internet a lodge meeting only hushes that day further off than it is now. . I couldnt agree more. Excellent points.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 8, 2009 4:34:35 GMT
When we're talking about Masonic, quasi, crypto or neo, let's remember this: It is a matter of historic record that masonic impostors were identified to the larger fraternity through internal as well as public public means such as newspapers. Today we are largely marginalized from the general media, but we still do peg them within our GL-to-GL and lodge-to-lodge channels and, within a broader base, through the internet--which has basically, for our modern intents and purposes, replaced the printed circular. While the Internet is a beautiful cocoon of virtual safety for the crafty, unwary and stupid, entire groups deemed as offering illegitimate goods for cash can still be tried in court for mail fraud. Buyer beware and hucksters be damned--by the law if it is pressed. See the McBain-Thompson trial for a great masonic example (even though it occurred 80 or so years ago). Still, many today are convicted of this crime. Take heed, partisans who charge money for nothing: there is good hope that one should suss out their institution's substance and can, with evidence, successfully argue its lasting virtue--even if it humps onto another tradition ( natch). By the way, note that when one is a partisan, he is engaged in partisanship. If one wishes to use one or the other, then please endeavor to understand their proper usages both in the written word and in day to day life. One of the interesting things I learned when working as an attorney's aide/paralegal in the field of criminal law was that the penalties for soliciting "funds for philosophy/mystery knowledge" over the internet or mail has several problems. If the US Postal Service is used it becomes not just a felony, but a federal felony in that it is considered mail fraud. Its also a federal felony if the internet is used and can be even more so if those who get taken are in a different state from the person running the scam. Even our beloved gentle Craft is not safe from internet charlatans, huxters and snake oil salesmen. Again, what does this have to do with the AA&EF specifically? They do charge dues but so does your lodge, am I right? Our gentle Craft is also rife with rabid partisan zealots who cannot recognize anything outside of their own Masonic code as "genuine" and belittle and harass those who do.
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