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Post by mcovey on Jan 11, 2010 4:09:53 GMT
Hmmm. Being single, frankly, I like the idea of a Lodge that admits women. (Hey, you never know). But would I have to be an atheist to join? Would someone who believes in God feel comfortable in those kind of Lodges? Are there any other particular advantages to one sect over another that I should know about? You'd best believe in God if you wish to be a Freemason. No matter the jurisdiction, it is a requirement. Even the one who seems to not require the belief says this on their website. (Le Droit Humain) When it is phrased that way, I suspect they don't have any of whom we would label atheist, meaning without a theology and being irreligious. A great example is a Buddhist friend of mine.
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 11, 2010 5:56:04 GMT
Belief in a deity may be a requirement under certain Masonic jurisdictions. To say though that it is an absolute requirement to be a Freemason under any circumstance is incorrect.
Love and Light,
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Post by lauderdale on Jan 11, 2010 7:15:44 GMT
Not strictly true Mc Covey. In the British Federation of LDH yes , but that is not necessarily the case in all other Federations. You also omit Grand Orient de France (GOdF) which does not require a belief in a Deity by its members.
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Jan 11, 2010 13:54:54 GMT
Thanks for the welcome! I'm kind of new to this type of forum, so forgive me if this is the wrong place for this question, but I was wondering: Are "Independent Lodges" the same thing as "Post Modern Freemasonry?" or am I totally off base? Are they the same thing as "Irregular" Lodges... I'm lost here. What's the difference between all these groups or sects? <(What would be the right term to use there?) Not all independent lodges are Post-Modern Freemasons. All Post-Modern lodges are independent ;D To make a long story short independent lodges are just that. Lodges who answer only to their own membership, not to some hierarchical authority. Regularity is a complex issue. Basically, regularity is the term used for Masonic best practices. For an example, in the "Mainstream" (the kind of lodge you will find in your home town) they do not admit women, require a belief in a supreme being and they hold a charter from (and are in submission too) a Grand Lodge. My lodge admits women, does not require any religious belief and we do not recognize the authority of any grand lodge. Thus, they would consider us "irregular" and visa versa. The issue with this however is that each Masonic institution ( either independent or mainstream) is sovereign of any other. So, the determination of regularity applies only to individual membership, not to anyone outside of it. most often when Masons call other Masons "irregular" it is an attempt to marginalize and hurt feelings. Love and Light, I wonder if lodges formed under the post-modern umbrella would still be considered independent? Independent in the raw sense would mean an island unto itself, no?
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Post by maximus on Jan 11, 2010 16:24:39 GMT
I wonder if lodges formed under the post-modern umbrella would still be considered independent? Independent in the raw sense would mean an island unto itself, no? Indeed. If one declares oneself independent, it necessarily implies self reliance. What advantage, then, an organization - especially one which rejects the concept of hierarchy or authority? Seems self-contradictory.
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Post by maximus on Jan 11, 2010 16:29:49 GMT
Speaking from the Post-Modern point of view, we could care less what your personal religious beliefs (or lack of) are. I would assume that we have members who are religious, it is not a typical topic of conversation. Then are we to assume, then, that there are no standards for admission?
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Post by maximus on Jan 11, 2010 16:36:56 GMT
I agree Brother Leo. I have enjoyed the relative peace and calm that has been around here latley. Back on topic. I am aware of independent lodges in England and Scotland but none yet in Ireland. I will let you know when changes in that situation develop. The number of independents increase every day. I think you exaggerate. Every day would imply that there are independent or "post-modern" lodges forming every single day, in numerous countries all over the world. This seems improbable. Other than your claims, is there any independent corroboration as to this seemingly miraculous phenomena? My Scottish Brethren are unaware of any independent movement in Scotland.
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Post by jeddye on Jan 11, 2010 16:57:13 GMT
Hmmm. Being single, frankly, I like the idea of a Lodge that admits women. (Hey, you never know). But would I have to be an atheist to join? Would someone who believes in God feel comfortable in those kind of Lodges? Are there any other particular advantages to one sect over another that I should know about? While I highly endorse the magical and special relationship that exists within Masonic couples I would suggest joining a gender equal lodge expressly looking for a romantic relationship is highly unadvisable. Just a joke. Sorry if it was out of line. [/quote] This thread is getting kind of confusing. The answers seem to be all over the map. I was reading that Lodge Hera Blog that you recommended, and I came across this: "1.) Freemasonry is the Principle of Isolate Intelligence." What does that mean? Can you tell me, or is that secret?
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Jan 11, 2010 17:02:08 GMT
The two that I am aware of in the US are Vulcan Lodge and Halcyon, but they certainly have a hierarchical structure. It seems to me that every Lodge does, lest we would have a bunch of people talking over each other and not much else in the way of workings getting done. Certainly even in the post-modern Lodges Brad references, there is a slate of officers which by definition refutes the idea of being non-hierarchichal. Perhaps it would be better to say that these "independant" Lodges are not hierarchical in that they have no Grand Lodge structure, but if that is the way the term is meant as Brad uses it, then even the Lodges in which he works (or at least some of the many) would not meet his standards for a non-hierarchical structure as he has explained to us on more than one occassion how Brethren in his obediences hold degrees for certain periods of time based on their position within the Orders. Perhaps even the most simple example would be the listing of Mr. Frank Ripel as the "Grand Hierophant." Certainly such a title places him at the top of a hierarchy does it not?
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 11, 2010 18:08:26 GMT
Not all independent lodges are Post-Modern Freemasons. All Post-Modern lodges are independent ;D To make a long story short independent lodges are just that. Lodges who answer only to their own membership, not to some hierarchical authority. Regularity is a complex issue. Basically, regularity is the term used for Masonic best practices. For an example, in the "Mainstream" (the kind of lodge you will find in your home town) they do not admit women, require a belief in a supreme being and they hold a charter from (and are in submission too) a Grand Lodge. My lodge admits women, does not require any religious belief and we do not recognize the authority of any grand lodge. Thus, they would consider us "irregular" and visa versa. The issue with this however is that each Masonic institution ( either independent or mainstream) is sovereign of any other. So, the determination of regularity applies only to individual membership, not to anyone outside of it. most often when Masons call other Masons "irregular" it is an attempt to marginalize and hurt feelings. Love and Light, I wonder if lodges formed under the post-modern umbrella would still be considered independent? Independent in the raw sense would mean an island unto itself, no? This is a good question. To answer your question , yes, all Post-Modern lodges are fiercly independent. All lodge authority rests within the lodge itself. Now, there are common values and practices, there are also large differences. We work together in a cooperative by choice not by mandate. There is no "organization" only a communal cooperative. Quite a difference and an intentional one. Love and Light, Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 11, 2010 18:12:23 GMT
Speaking from the Post-Modern point of view, we could care less what your personal religious beliefs (or lack of) are. I would assume that we have members who are religious, it is not a typical topic of conversation. Then are we to assume, then, that there are no standards for admission? You can assume whatever you would like. Your assumption would be wrong. If you have read any of our website's, petition's our standards for admission are made very clear. Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 11, 2010 18:16:49 GMT
The two that I am aware of in the US are Vulcan Lodge and Halcyon, but they certainly have a hierarchical structure. It seems to me that every Lodge does, lest we would have a bunch of people talking over each other and not much else in the way of workings getting done. Certainly even in the post-modern Lodges Brad references, there is a slate of officers which by definition refutes the idea of being non-hierarchichal. Perhaps it would be better to say that these "independant" Lodges are not hierarchical in that they have no Grand Lodge structure, but if that is the way the term is meant as Brad uses it, then even the Lodges in which he works (or at least some of the many) would not meet his standards for a non-hierarchical structure as he has explained to us on more than one occassion how Brethren in his obediences hold degrees for certain periods of time based on their position within the Orders. Perhaps even the most simple example would be the listing of Mr. Frank Ripel as the "Grand Hierophant." Certainly such a title places him at the top of a hierarchy does it not? Halcyon is not a independent lodge. They are lodge #2 in the GOUSA. WGH Ripel is Grand Hierophant of the MEAPRMM -Soverereign Sanctuary of Italy. Itself as an order not Post-Modern Freemasonic but Post Modern friendly. WGH Ripel is not a current member of any Post-Modern lodge of Freemasonry although I know the movement has his 100% support. He is a wonderfual mentor and Brother and I will peronally thank him for his inspiration. Love and Light,
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Post by maximus on Jan 11, 2010 18:22:15 GMT
You can assume whatever you would like. Your assumption would be wrong. If you have read any of our website's, petition's our standards for admission are made very clear. Why don't you explain it for the general edification of the board?
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 11, 2010 18:48:08 GMT
You can assume whatever you would like. Your assumption would be wrong. If you have read any of our website's, petition's our standards for admission are made very clear. Why don't you explain it for the general edification of the board? Qualifications for admission very from lodge to lodge. As to the lodges that I am a member of it is stated clearly on our websites. I think you know this already. Love and Light,
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Post by maximus on Jan 11, 2010 19:07:37 GMT
Qualifications for admission very from lodge to lodge. As to the lodges that I am a member of it is stated clearly on our websites. I see. So, by stating that qualifications vary from one lodge to another, we can then extrapolate that admittance is arbitrary. In other words, that there are no set standards. I think that clarifies things nicely.
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KNOs1s
Member
I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
Posts: 1,330
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 11, 2010 19:30:24 GMT
At least Lodge Hera seems to have no qualifications aside from age:
"Our lodge is open to men and women over the age of 21. From all backgrounds, societal standings, races, religions ( or lack of ) and sexual orientation. We are stiving to build a better planet and we could use the help of those seeking to live for the cause."
If taken literally, it would seem felons are welcome, convicted murderers, rapists, child-molesters, Nazi skinheads, &c. This might not be the case, yet that's how I read it. Perhaps this is not 'clearly stated', or I am missing something. What it clearly states is that all over 21 are admitted. That's it. Perhaps Lodge Hera needs to clarify a bit, or they truly will allow anyone.
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 11, 2010 19:31:46 GMT
Qualifications for admission very from lodge to lodge. As to the lodges that I am a member of it is stated clearly on our websites. I see. So, by stating that qualifications vary from one lodge to another, we can then extrapolate that admittance is arbitrary. In other words, that there are no set standards. I think that clarifies things nicely. Whatever makes you happy ;D Are lodges are made up by adults and they can decide for themselves the best direction for their lodge. They don't need anyone holding their hand. I know independence, freedom of thought and lodge sovereignty are all ideals that you oppose so your position is both understandable and predictable. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
Member
I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
Posts: 1,330
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 11, 2010 19:48:49 GMT
This post seems to violate the 'no tolerance policy on personal attacks' when you say Maximus is against these things; but I'm not a moderator here. It is however a strawman argument. I see. So, by stating that qualifications vary from one lodge to another, we can then extrapolate that admittance is arbitrary. In other words, that there are no set standards. I think that clarifies things nicely. Whatever makes you happy ;D Are lodges are made up by adults and they can decide for themselves the best direction for their lodge. They don't need anyone holding their hand. I know independence, freedom of thought and lodge sovereignty are all ideals that you oppose so your position is both understandable and predictable.
Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 11, 2010 20:15:04 GMT
At least Lodge Hera seems to have no qualifications aside from age: "Our lodge is open to men and women over the age of 21. From all backgrounds, societal standings, races, religions ( or lack of ) and sexual orientation. We are stiving to build a better planet and we could use the help of those seeking to live for the cause."
If taken literally, it would seem felons are welcome, convicted murderers, rapists, child-molesters, Nazi skinheads, &c. This might not be the case, yet that's how I read it. Perhaps this is not 'clearly stated', or I am missing something. What it clearly states is that all over 21 are admitted. That's it. Perhaps Lodge Hera needs to clarify a bit, or they truly will allow anyone. Why don't you contact Lodge Hera if you are interested in membership and find out? I am a co founder of Lodge Hera but I am not a current officer. I am not aware of any felons as of yet in any Post-Modern lodge BUT Nelson Mandela does have an open invitation ;D Love and Light, Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
Member
I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
Posts: 1,330
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 11, 2010 20:25:12 GMT
At least Lodge Hera seems to have no qualifications aside from age: "Our lodge is open to men and women over the age of 21. From all backgrounds, societal standings, races, religions ( or lack of ) and sexual orientation. We are stiving to build a better planet and we could use the help of those seeking to live for the cause."
If taken literally, it would seem felons are welcome, convicted murderers, rapists, child-molesters, Nazi skinheads, &c. This might not be the case, yet that's how I read it. Perhaps this is not 'clearly stated', or I am missing something. What it clearly states is that all over 21 are admitted. That's it. Perhaps Lodge Hera needs to clarify a bit, or they truly will allow anyone. Why don't you contact Lodge Hera if you are interested in membership and find out? I am a co founder of Lodge Hera but I am not a current officer. I am not aware of any felons as of yet in any Post-Modern lodge BUT Nelson Mandela does have an open invitation ;D Love and Light, Love and Light, Your not having a felon and welcoming Nelson Mandela is irrelevant. I was seeking to confirm these statements; "If you have read any of our website's, petition's our standards for admission are made very clear." and "Qualifications for admission very from lodge to lodge. As to the lodges that I am a member of it is stated clearly on our websites." If I have to contact them, and you as a member are in the dark, then clearly the statements are falsehoods and/or erroneous. If a lodge co-creator doesn't know, it's difficult to suppose anyone else at the lodge would.
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