vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Nov 20, 2007 13:37:59 GMT
more news brothers: Today, Grand Master Charlie L. Montgomery expelled Frank Haas, Past Grand Master from Masonry by edict that he had prepared and read at a stated communication of Wellsburg Lodge #2. Richard Bosely was also expelled. There is also a report that Wellsburg Lodge was placed on probation for requesting a Masonic Trial for MW Haas. We will obtain further information and post it here. Brethren it should be brutally clear now that NO DISSENSION WILL BE ALLOWED. You are living in historic times for West Virginia Masonry. more brothers out without a trial, and a PGM as well. As I said before, if 1 GM does it(Georgia and jeff), another could do it, now in WVA. brothers wronged and no recourse....... If I hadn't seen this information for myself this morning, I wouldn't have believed it. This is very sad.
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Post by antoninus9 on Nov 20, 2007 13:44:51 GMT
vtmason,
There are some good GL's and some bad ones. You're lucky to be where you are brother. Some of us have not been so lucky.
In some states we need to build (like Vermont), in others we to bring in the wrecking ball and start over.
Jeff
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Post by tws on Nov 20, 2007 13:56:33 GMT
more news brothers: Today, Grand Master Charlie L. Montgomery expelled Frank Haas, Past Grand Master from Masonry by edict that he had prepared and read at a stated communication of Wellsburg Lodge #2. Richard Bosely was also expelled. There is also a report that Wellsburg Lodge was placed on probation for requesting a Masonic Trial for MW Haas. We will obtain further information and post it here. Brethren it should be brutally clear now that NO DISSENSION WILL BE ALLOWED. You are living in historic times for West Virginia Masonry. more brothers out without a trial, and a PGM as well. As I said before, if 1 GM does it(Georgia and jeff), another could do it, now in WVA. brothers wronged and no recourse....... I would be interested in hearing the other side of the story that we are not privy to. I'm frankly getting tired of hearing how despotic and evil GLs are. If the GLs were such despots you would think that innocent Masons would be getting tossed out left and right.
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Post by 2 BOWL CAIN on Nov 20, 2007 14:10:59 GMT
more news brothers: Today, Grand Master Charlie L. Montgomery expelled Frank Haas, Past Grand Master from Masonry by edict that he had prepared and read at a stated communication of Wellsburg Lodge #2. Richard Bosely was also expelled. There is also a report that Wellsburg Lodge was placed on probation for requesting a Masonic Trial for MW Haas. We will obtain further information and post it here. Brethren it should be brutally clear now that NO DISSENSION WILL BE ALLOWED. You are living in historic times for West Virginia Masonry. more brothers out without a trial, and a PGM as well. As I said before, if 1 GM does it(Georgia and jeff), another could do it, now in WVA. brothers wronged and no recourse....... I would be interested in hearing the other side of the story that we are not privy to. I'm frankly getting tired of hearing how despotic and evil GLs are. If the GLs were such despots you would think that innocent Masons would be getting tossed out left and right. It takes a certain type of integrity to be sought out by despots, so the fraternity would need to be filled with fearless men who stand up for right, not stand up for status quo because some one says so. I can't wait to hear why a PGM needed to be suspended without a trial... I anxiously await, my brother........indeed....
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Post by leonardo on Nov 20, 2007 14:38:17 GMT
Brothers, I appreciate I am a new Mason, but is there not a violation of certain laws here regarding the sharing of private information between a GL and it's members (albeit now former members) on a public forum?
And please don't forget there are always two sides to every story and all we are hearing is from one side of the equation.
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Post by penfold on Nov 20, 2007 14:48:11 GMT
Nothing legal Leo, there could be a question of airing what is effectively private business in public, but as long as the information published is released by those who are subject to the orders then there is no issue, i.e. it is thier info and they can share it with who they like. With this in mind, Bro TC publishing his own news about the expulsion is all good, however, publishing the other info would require the permission of those he is writing about to keep it clean and above board.
IN reply to tws, yes we do seem to be getting just one side of the story, the board is open for the GL's mentioned to respond if they wish, but nobody can force them to join up and give us their side of the story - they have to do it off their own back.
From my own perspective it is very sad to see such actions being taken, it would be far better that the GL's concerned attempt reconcilliation and discourse before resorting to such actions.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 20, 2007 15:42:37 GMT
Cheers Penfold for clearing that up.
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Post by penfold on Nov 20, 2007 16:06:11 GMT
I do try to keep things clear, don't always succeed, but I always try!
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Post by negredo on Nov 20, 2007 17:47:26 GMT
one question: can someone be suspended if they already turned in their card?Bro TC, logically I'd say NO. You have Resigned, you have already sent back your card. You are no longer subject to that Jurisdiction's Rules as you have rejected them. You are still a Freemason, only YOU can abjure that. All they can "Suspend" are the rights of attendance etc for an Organisation you have already left. It would be like the Pope excommunicating someone who had ceased to be a Roman Catholic, an empty sanction. No doubt your former Grand Lodge will go through its own process, "Bell, Book and Candle" as it where. Possibly they will summons you to appear before some Committee of the "High and Mighty". Whether you attend or not is your choice, I wouldn't in your circumstances as the matter has gone further than that, but it is for you to decide. The worst punishment they could impose is expel you , a redundant gesture as you have already left. One of the other posters used the Japanese word Ronin, I feel that is quite a good description of your status now. In some jurisdictions a mason can still be tried for his transgressions and/or suspended/expelled even if he has voluntarily resigned. Any mason who eschews his Freemasonry can technically be tried and expelled (but this is rarely seen, otherwise most of the internet forum would be empty). Furthermore, turning in a card does not constitute a legal resignation because a letter of dimit must be signed by all involved. Also, there is this sticky issue with transferred funds, special charities, GLs, lions and tigers and bears. I'm surprised there is not a nazi or a dragon involved. Before we get too romantic like science fiction convention attendees, a Ronin is according to the Bushido Shoshinshu (the Code of the Samurai), was supposed to commit oibara seppuku (also "hara kiri" – ritual suicide) upon the loss of his master. One who chose to not honor the code was "on his own" and was meant to suffer great shame. The undesirability of ronin status was mainly a discrimination imposed by other samurai and by the daimyo (the feudal lords). So I expect to see more shame and mass suicides, okay? Move along now.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 20, 2007 19:29:30 GMT
The undesirability of ronin status was mainly a discrimination imposed by other samurai and by the daimyo (the feudal lords). Quite so and quite apt, but perhaps not very Masonic.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 20, 2007 20:04:05 GMT
one question: can someone be suspended if they already turned in their card?Bro TC, logically I'd say NO. You have Resigned, you have already sent back your card. You are no longer subject to that Jurisdiction's Rules as you have rejected them. You are still a Freemason, only YOU can abjure that. All they can "Suspend" are the rights of attendance etc for an Organisation you have already left. It would be like the Pope excommunicating someone who had ceased to be a Roman Catholic, an empty sanction. No doubt your former Grand Lodge will go through its own process, "Bell, Book and Candle" as it where. Possibly they will summons you to appear before some Committee of the "High and Mighty". Whether you attend or not is your choice, I wouldn't in your circumstances as the matter has gone further than that, but it is for you to decide. The worst punishment they could impose is expel you , a redundant gesture as you have already left. One of the other posters used the Japanese word Ronin, I feel that is quite a good description of your status now. In some jurisdictions a mason can still be tried for his transgressions and/or suspended/expelled even if he has voluntarily resigned. Any mason who eschews his Freemasonry can technically be tried and expelled (but this is rarely seen, otherwise most of the internet forum would be empty). Furthermore, turning in a card does not constitute a legal resignation because a letter of dimit must be signed by all involved. Also, there is this sticky issue with transferred funds, special charities, GLs, lions and tigers and bears. I'm surprised there is not a nazi or a dragon involved. Before we get too romantic like science fiction convention attendees, a Ronin is according to the Bushido Shoshinshu (the Code of the Samurai), was supposed to commit oibara seppuku (also "hara kiri" – ritual suicide) upon the loss of his master. One who chose to not honor the code was "on his own" and was meant to suffer great shame. The undesirability of ronin status was mainly a discrimination imposed by other samurai and by the daimyo (the feudal lords). So I expect to see more shame and mass suicides, okay? Move along now. OT: Busihdo did not come along until the Tokugawa period with the publishing of the Hagakure. IMHO it was the result of a extended time of peace when the Samurai had too much time on thier hands.
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Post by negredo on Nov 20, 2007 20:10:54 GMT
The undesirability of ronin status was mainly a discrimination imposed by other samurai and by the daimyo (the feudal lords). Quite so and quite apt, but perhaps not very Masonic. But the Samurai were not masons and therefore, not masonic. The two systems are incongruent and thus cannot be mixed and matched. There is no such thing as a "masonic ronin" because a Master-less EA or FC will be directed to another Master. An EA or FC that is Masterless because he has chosen to leave will also be different from an EA or FC whose lodge has rejected him for bad behavior and will not progress him or in my country will strike him from the rolls, will also be handled differently than a EA or FC who simply lost his master to death. We must remember that the Masonic Craft is modeled on the forms and ceremonies of building guilds, similar to modern unions, and not warrior classes, high priesthoods, et cetera. It is a system of human instruction in a Craft that has divine origin. It can help one find the creative divine within, but when you leave the tradition, like a union, you cease to work with that tradition in an authorized manner. A union disallows its members to work outside of it and once someone does, their work is not guaranteed in any way and it becomes caveat emptor. They can be trained in that trade, but they have no benefit of fraternity or access to evolving standards. An independent craftsman is one thing, but on corporate jobs he will be naturally passed over usually for the union worker (sometimes unfairly). However, the simple and trusty independent craftsman are outnumbered by very untrustworthy workers. The guild or union, then, exists for fraternity, strength, technical guarantee and improvement.
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Post by negredo on Nov 20, 2007 20:27:15 GMT
I suggest no one intended intended the comparison to be other than a light-hearted analogy. it is hard to tell with so many serious people here.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 20, 2007 20:27:50 GMT
I suggest no one intended the comparison to be other than a light-hearted analogy. Edit: My apologies, This post is out of sequence because I deleted the original post (as being not worth saying), then changed my mind and then noted the original already had a response. Perhaps a moderator would please kindly tidy up the mess I have inadvertently caused.
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Post by negredo on Nov 20, 2007 20:36:25 GMT
it is hard to tell with so many serious people here.
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Post by lafrohaig on Nov 20, 2007 20:53:19 GMT
My brothers it's getting a little sporty in here.I am an Illinois mason,as such, I fall on my obligation when defering to this crushing news. you all seem to forget the benefit to lodge and craft, in Illinois GL pays the bills on MANY lodges up to and including utilities and taxes. IllinoisGL goes along way to ensure the survival of craft.They could never be irrelevent
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Post by amos on Nov 20, 2007 23:11:06 GMT
I wish more grand lodges would assist lodges that need help instead of hoping they fold and the GL just reaps the assets of said troubled lodge. Ill.GL seems to be one of the good ones.
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Nov 20, 2007 23:24:19 GMT
I wish more grand lodges would assist lodges that need help instead of hoping they fold and the GL just reaps the assets of said troubled lodge. Ill.GL seems to be one of the good ones. My experience tells me that when a lodge folds up here, there is nothing left to reap, just a handful of disheartened brothers. It breaks my heart
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Nov 21, 2007 0:12:44 GMT
I for one am pleased that Halcyon has decided to sever ties with its former GL.
Lest this be read in a manner unintended, let me explain a little.
In some locations, if a Brother decides that the form of Freemasonry she or he is a member of is heading in directions not reflecting ideal directions, they may have the opportunity to resign and instead join another Lodge either independent (there are many in Europe) or under a different GL (again, in Europe there is often a reasonably wide range from which to choose).
In many other locations around the world, this is often not the case... and even if it was, what is to be done when a whole Lodge decides that it wishes to transfer its allegiance to another GL or become independent?
Here is what appears to have occurred, without the possibility of simply 'switching' to another GL (if desired).
The brethren had the temerity and inner rectitude to take a more difficult decision, knowing that it would (even though it shouldn't) draw on them unwarranted recrimination.
For the fortitude and for their inner integrity in this decision, they have my personal full support (however little it amounts to).
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Post by penfold on Nov 21, 2007 10:48:51 GMT
I wish more grand lodges would assist lodges that need help instead of hoping they fold and the GL just reaps the assets of said troubled lodge. That is a sentiment that many would agree with
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