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Post by antoninus9 on Nov 19, 2007 16:07:24 GMT
Bro. Bill,
All members were sent 2008 dues cards. They can dimit to anywhere they choose if they choose to do so. The can still meet in their old building. All that changed is the lodge doesn't exist anymore unless they go back and request the Charter, which they can do, if they choose.
I don't believe anyone cares enough to come back and re-constitute the lodge, but that option is available to them.
Not an awful lot really changed by this event. As I said earlier, the other Cleveland Masons are still using the temple. The fact they even have the temple is a credit to the brothers of Halcyon.
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Post by penfold on Nov 19, 2007 16:13:27 GMT
Bro. Penfold, In what way does the post show "aggression"? Could it be that you are overly sensitive? If you are offended I apologize for whatever offended you. No one is being ignored in this. Lodges are governed by the officers and attending members. As it has been for centuries among Masons, the members not attending must trust the good will and intentions of those who attend and know what's going on. Maybe you should consider trusting the brothers who know what's going on as well. It is their duty to act in the best interest of the lodge and they have done what they believed to be the right thing given the circumstances. It wasn't just a bunch of young radicals who made that decision, the older members in attendance agreed it was the right decision. It was officer election night and many brothers were there. They voted unanimously to do what they did. There were no votes against and no abstentions. Jeff The word 'crap' may well be acceptable around your dining table, but it isn't at this one, and yes, your tone was aggressive. How can you have a unanimous vote if some people who are eligible to vote haven't voted nor were aware of a vote? I would also say that by stiffling debate and not going for complete open-ness and honesty then suspicions of sharp practice will arise. The only way to show that this is not the case is to let the light of truth in.
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Post by antoninus9 on Nov 19, 2007 17:10:36 GMT
To be honest Bro. Penfold none of this is any of your business, it's Halcyon's. You have no right to any information. I've shared with you all that I have to say.
If that's not satisfactory to you then that's just tough, isn't it?
Jeff
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 19, 2007 17:12:58 GMT
Jeff that is rude, you brought the subject here no one else.
This forum is helping you put across your point of view.
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Post by penfold on Nov 19, 2007 17:29:33 GMT
To be honest Bro. Penfold none of this is any of your business, it's Halcyon's. You have no right to any information. I've shared with you all that I have to say. If that's not satisfactory to you then that's just tough, isn't it? Jeff Methinks the lady doth protest too much. You brought the subject to us, you can't then turn around and take your ball away if you don't like the way people are using it. Your response is rude, and contradicts the spirit and nature of the forum, you are aware of the standards expected here, and you are falling well short. The remainder of my response to you will be contained in a PM so as not to sully the forum further.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 19, 2007 18:39:33 GMT
To be honest Bro. Penfold none of this is any of your business, it's Halcyon's. You have no right to any information. I've shared with you all that I have to say. If that's not satisfactory to you then that's just tough, isn't it? Jeff Brother Jeff, it's unfortunate and deeply regrettable to see you adopt this attitude on a forum that has been extremely tolerant of your views to date. To be honest I am somewhat disappointed.
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Post by 2 BOWL CAIN on Nov 19, 2007 19:41:30 GMT
brothers we are all humans first and prone to error! second, I highly doubt any of you have taken a masonic beating to the likes of brother peace has.
I have empathy for brother peace because I know what it is like to be castigated by ones who point out your faults readily, but do not like the way you point things back.
I understand there is much that cannot be said, I think you all should be able to understand potential implications of anything spread across the net. Especially if Halcyon is going to be a recipient of draconian backlash/ law suits, etc.. so playing cards close to the chest is only logical.
I am also sorry that certain words used by brother peace are abrasive, but some of us americans still hold to the creed," sticks and stones my break my bones, but names(words) will never hurt(offend) me"
We are still travelling on the road to perfection and expect road bumps along the way. thanks for the tolerance and brotherly love shown us here!
Plus there is a long history that led to this, brother peace and all the internet speculators have just entered the scene at the end of the play, everybody missed the first few acts that happened over the last 10+years to build toward this.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 19, 2007 19:51:10 GMT
Bro:. tubulcain420 I appreciate where you are coming from, as an American you'll be more familiar with certain subtleties of expression that are lost on us over here, but much can be said without resorting to such methods. We all, at least I can, can acknowledge Bro:. Jeff's passion for what he believes and no-one is saying he doesn't have the right to have such strongly held beliefs, but many will take umbrage to how he expresses them.
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Post by penfold on Nov 19, 2007 20:08:07 GMT
Bro TC,
I am more than aware of the way that bro's Brad and Jeff have been dealt with in other places. As to any punishment by masonic authorities I am ignorant of it, and it is a matter between those authorities and the bretheren concerned, it is no business of mine or this forums, I'm happy to stay ignorant of them. What I would like these brothers, and all posters, to do is to view MFoL as a seperate place, and not bring their previous treatment by others to use as a weapon/shield - surely what matters is how they are treated here? Making unhelpful comments about 'bobbleheads' and engaging in savage words with the VOLUNTEERS who run this forum isn't a way to win sympathy. Likewise, with respect to the recent threads on lodges going it alone, when one opens a topic on a forum you do so anticipating debate? So why the hostility when questions are asked? MFoL has to date, expelled no more than 5 members, I don't know the exact figure, but I know it is less than five. Kicking people into touch isn't something we do lightly, and, like all conflict, it usually means there has been a total failure in communication. We aren't at that point, but we are getting close, bridges still exist, so lets build on them, not burn them.
And I disagree regards the use of language, one of the first masonic lessons is to keep a good tongue in your head, if one needs to, count to ten and re-read what you are posting first - if you think it will offend even one person who reads it then it is worth rewording it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 19, 2007 20:09:43 GMT
TC I admire your defence of a brother, but he is not being attacked. Just being asked some questions. I too like Jeff.
Its the old thing that if you put your head up over the parapet some 'so and so' is going to shoot at you. I know that, you know that and in reality Jeff knows it too.
Please remember some of us have been there a long, long time and know all that has happened before. I have a great deal in common with Jeff , I do not give up if I believe I am right, He believes he is right. There are many who agree with some or most of what he is trying to do.
I can take everyone and show them postings by maybe 20 Masons that are just about identical to what Jeff has posted and said. But I am a bit lazy and you will have to take my word for it.
What you can not do is bring something to a forum which you know is revolutionary and just say 'sod off' when you get some awkward questions. It makes you look like you just don't care. Then the reader starts to think well maybe he said that to the Guys at this Lodge. Maybe he don't care about them either.
Now your all well educated people you all know it is just not good policy, I am not saying its evil or bad, it is just counter productive.
At some point Halcyon will see that what is being said here and elsewhere is meant to help and yes test them.
I said this about a friend a few years back, the finest swords are made by from quality metal constant heating and bending and folding. Then they are heated and folded again and again. but in the end the sword maker produces the finest metal and the finest sword. Good thing to remember when you see the Tylers sword.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 19, 2007 20:22:35 GMT
Don't worry Penfold. I will leave of my own accord. This was at one time for a long time in fact a beautiful place. Now I see that that time has passed and the pressure to make MFoL another bobblehead forum has proven to be too much for the moderators to take. I do not blame them and the gaunlet of power is indeed swift. I will not however wait for the gallows to drop beneath my feet due to such political pressure.
MFoL was home to such free thinkers as Brother's Peace and Carter as well as myself. I can see that is no longer the case. So be it. eMasonry would seem to across all national lines to be a place of conformity to certian rules, MLoF WAS different, not it is not. Times do change, and I will change with them.
So Mote It Be, Brad Cofield 2nd Degree Masonic Ronin
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Post by penfold on Nov 19, 2007 20:28:05 GMT
Don't worry Penfold. I will leave of my own accord. This was at one time for a long time in fact a beautiful place. Now I see that that time has passed and the pressure to make MFoL another bobblehead forum has proven to be too much for the moderators to take. I do not blame them and the gaunlet of power is indeed swift. I will not however wait for the gallows to drop beneath my feet due to such political pressure. MFoL was home to such free thinkers as Brother's Peace and Carter as well as myself. I can see that is no longer the case. So be it. eMasonry would seem to across all national lines to be a place of conformity to certian rules, MLoF WAS different, not it is not. Times do change, and I will change with them. So Mote It Be, Brad Cofield 2nd Degree Masonic Ronin How wrong you are, it is your words alone that have raised conflict, nobody has asked us to do anything to you, not one PM from anyone saying 'off with their heads'. Either we aren't important enough, or they don't care, who knows, it isn't important. Please re-read what I wrote above, like everyone, if you abide by the rules you are welcome to stay.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 19, 2007 20:54:22 GMT
Don't worry Penfold. I will leave of my own accord. This was at one time for a long time in fact a beautiful place. Now I see that that time has passed and the pressure to make MFoL another bobblehead forum has proven to be too much for the moderators to take. I do not blame them and the gaunlet of power is indeed swift. I will not however wait for the gallows to drop beneath my feet due to such political pressure. MFoL was home to such free thinkers as Brother's Peace and Carter as well as myself. I can see that is no longer the case. So be it. eMasonry would seem to across all national lines to be a place of conformity to certian rules, MLoF WAS different, not it is not. Times do change, and I will change with them. So Mote It Be, Brad Cofield 2nd Degree Masonic Ronin Well I am not going to be so polite. What utter hogwash. You have been allowed full and unfettered access here as has Jeff and TC, so don't come that old rubbish. Either put up or shut up. This whining " oh no, everyone hates me" garbage is not of man it is of mice. You are the same as everyone else. No better , no worse. If you have something to say say it. But do it with respect to the other members here that is all.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Nov 19, 2007 21:13:09 GMT
Have a good one. I am not happy with the outcome but I am not blind either. Have fun folding this forum into the ranks of the bobbleheads. I cannot say I am pleased, but it is out of my control
God Bless, Brad Cofield
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Nov 19, 2007 21:25:59 GMT
Man, I was at work all day and missed the fun. I want to be a bobblehead.
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Nov 19, 2007 21:27:28 GMT
All I can picture in my head right now is sitting here writing with a bobblehead of Karen, Cora and Loraine next to my Mayor McCheese grooving to the beat of Miles Davis with me
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Post by amos on Nov 19, 2007 21:39:28 GMT
Brethren, We have tried to no end to work in the system. The same old story,"It's not how we do things here,or it's always been this way." Another quote when I tried to spruce up the lodge a little bit, I got this, Mike Ciceretti says to me " Every nail and every hook has it's purpose, You are not to touch anything unless I tell you to do it." and this was just because I changed a couple of chairs around in our lounge area. lol
We have always tried to take the high road and it never got us anything but aggravation.
Yes I admit we have been close to crossing the line and have made a few mistakes, but in the best interest of everybody involved we did what we did.
I have been a member for about ten years now and have sat in the east so I know what has transpired.
I can not go into details and all of which will come out as the Master sees fit. I recall hearing something like this " This is not the time nor place".
Yes some members teased people which I do not agree with but I feel like it still should not be speculated on by anyone outside the know.
Time ,patience, and perseverance will get you what you desire.
I also find it disturbing that people want to call us unmasonic and cast judgment.
People seem to always bring up the oath and forget about the charges which in my opinion are just as important if not more.
"You are not to palliate or aggravate the offenses of your Brethren, but in the decision of every trespass against our rules you are to judge with candor, admonish with friendship and reprehend with justice."
If things work out great if not so be it. We had to do what we had to do. It was not just a handful of guys that did this and it did not happen over night.
People seem to think Br. Peace was the big instigator here and thats not the case. This has been coming to this for the last seven years, so I wish that people would stop saying he started this whole mess. We did not know Bro. Peace until about a year and half ago give or take.
If people would just give it some time we will all see where this is going and stop the speculating and causing a huge rumor mill.
Fraternally C.P. Snow P.M., R.A.M.
Monday, November 19, 2007 4:27:00 PM
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Post by wayseer on Nov 19, 2007 21:44:13 GMT
Yep! - You all got carried away with something that does not actually concern you ... and now look at the fallout ... people threated with expulsions - threatening to leave. Sometimes it's good to remain mute.
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Post by penfold on Nov 19, 2007 21:48:44 GMT
Brethren, We have tried to no end to work in the system. The same old story,"It's not how we do things here,or it's always been this way." Another quote when I tried to spruce up the lodge a little bit, I got this, Mike Ciceretti says to me " Every nail and every hook has it's purpose, You are not to touch anything unless I tell you to do it." and this was just because I changed a couple of chairs around in our lounge area. lol We have always tried to take the high road and it never got us anything but aggravation. Yes I admit we have been close to crossing the line and have made a few mistakes, but in the best interest of everybody involved we did what we did. I have been a member for about ten years now and have sat in the east so I know what has transpired. I can not go into details and all of which will come out as the Master sees fit. I recall hearing something like this " This is not the time nor place". Yes some members teased people which I do not agree with but I feel like it still should not be speculated on by anyone outside the know. Time ,patience, and perseverance will get you what you desire. I also find it disturbing that people want to call us unmasonic and cast judgment. People seem to always bring up the oath and forget about the charges which in my opinion are just as important if not more. "You are not to palliate or aggravate the offenses of your Brethren, but in the decision of every trespass against our rules you are to judge with candor, admonish with friendship and reprehend with justice." If things work out great if not so be it. We had to do what we had to do. It was not just a handful of guys that did this and it did not happen over night. People seem to think Br. Peace was the big instigator here and thats not the case. This has been coming to this for the last seven years, so I wish that people would stop saying he started this whole mess. We did not know Bro. Peace until about a year and half ago give or take. If people would just give it some time we will all see where this is going and stop the speculating and causing a huge rumor mill. Fraternally C.P. Snow P.M., R.A.M. Monday, November 19, 2007 4:27:00 PM Welcome to the forum, brother, and thank you for sharing some more of the picture with us. I dont believe anybody here has actually said they believe Bro Jeff to be the instigator, but am happy to stand corrected if you can find such a post. Nobody has taken sides, we are simply asking questions about a matter that was brought before us. If it isn't up for discussion - why bring it? As it is we can only react to the information we are given, it has been suggested that not all members of the lodge voted for this breakaway, yet is also presented as being a unanimous decision - which is the truth? How are we to tell?
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Post by penfold on Nov 19, 2007 21:54:10 GMT
Have a good one. I am not happy with the outcome but I am not blind either. Have fun folding this forum into the ranks of the bobbleheads. I cannot say I am pleased, but it is out of my control God Bless, Brad Cofield What outcome? You haven't been deleted, you still have the right to post - you've just been asked to play by the same rules as everyone else. And what is a bobblehead?
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