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Post by a on Jun 17, 2005 6:40:47 GMT
Could I recommend that (given that this thread has now spilled over onto another page) all readers spend some time thinking about the posts on the last page, especially those by Russell and Maat. There is much to be learnt from them, and much which could help Freemasonry, individual Freemasons, and the world at large, at this time.
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on Jun 17, 2005 6:43:58 GMT
Stewart are you talking about helping our Spiritual and personal development or Freemasonry in general helping in some other way.?
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Post by a on Jun 17, 2005 6:48:02 GMT
All of the above.
Lee, I have a feeling that within a few years this is all going to make a whole lot more sense to you.
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Post by maat on Jun 17, 2005 7:01:42 GMT
Russell
Re: "But increasingly I see people who are being interfered with by dark entities sometimes with patterns going back millennia. In mild cases this results in occasional out-of-character behaviour when the entity exerts its influence."
Now does that part of the Ritual which refers to the first care of every Freemason make more sense to you?! Whenever we work for the light - our inner light really does shine on the subtle planes and we can become 'targets' - hence the admonition BEFORE the Lodge is opened.
It has become a fairly common practice among "New Agers" to white light themselves...they imagine a white protective light around themselves....same thing really.
Your reference to "patterns of past millenia" will be of interest to those who give credence to Atlantis and Reincarnation. History repeats itself, or so we are told, lets hope better choices are made this time round.
Freemasonry offers us a SAFE and RELIABLE way to expand our consciousness, the ultimate would be to acquire cosmic consciousness in a life time - all we have to do is follow the directions. We have nothing to fear.
Staffs - I have On/Off periods of experience also...I have put it down to being given the lesson and then having to put it into action. It is only when I have done this that I get the next lot. I have to say I am a slow learner sometimes.
Cheers Maat
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 17, 2005 7:52:10 GMT
Lee, both genders have a monthly pattern though it is more obvious of course in females. There are even computer programmes which claim to chart ones Bio-rythyms .
So there will be times when you are more receptive to psychic influences and forces and other times when the Physical are more powerful in your life. As an example I have sometimes found a time when I am all thumbs performing some mechanical action but very attuned to the more intellectual activities and vice versa.
As to those who join and leave, let them go. I used to worry over this but if someone feels that Freemasonry is not for them it will be counterproductive and to the benefit of nobody if they are made to remain in the Lodge against their own inclinations thus being unhappy in themselves and worse still disrupting the Harmony of the Lodge. The trouble is that one cannot "try before you buy" with Freemasonry and that is why I am as open as I can be with any Candidate whom I know as I would rather they knew what there was to know and made an informed decision to join or not than to enter The Craft in blissful ignorance then be unhappy.
On the wider aspect I have been to Lodges etc and Temples were I have felt "The Force", Brighton being one of the locations, as is Clerkenwell and of course GQS, but even in Lodges where they do not meet in an ornate Temple I have felt great beneficial power in their Meetings, 7058 Southwick being a case in point. Unfortunately I have also attended meetings at Centres and of Lodges where they have been totally "sterile" and I would have been as well attending the Local Residents Association .
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Post by bevan on Jun 17, 2005 8:24:31 GMT
....The effect of this field could be the reason why we have to lay down to sleep (cut off the power)... I always thought we lay down so that we wouldn't fall over later on in the night. Sorry, couldn't resist. But with all this woolly talk of energies I'm reminded of the principle of Occam's Razor...
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Post by bevan on Jun 17, 2005 8:43:51 GMT
My main problem with many so called esoteric Masons is that they try to "formularise" the spiritual experience. In order to feel that their experience is valid, people might unconsciously "shape" their interpretations to meet expectations. The more people read of the popularly accepted esoteric views the more they might come to see themselves as an authority in that area and the more their interpretations and beliefs will converge in that area. The problem is that all the indians want to be the chief, all the disciples want to be the master. And in doing so they may ruin the chance of wider enlightenment. Because whilst it is possible to be a master in a particular area of convergence, I question how valid of a life experience that truly is. We are all individuals experiencing unique aspects of the Universe. No two of my experiences are the same. My experience and your experience of the exact same situation will not be the same. My guardian spirits and probable other selves are different from yours. Where some might see a pale blue light or experience burning feet or any other popular esoteric concept, I might experience a warm glow down my spine. I'm certainly not going to try and "sell" you my interpretation of my experience. And I hope no-one tries to explain to me what a warm glow down my spine represents.
I see Masonry as a doorway to an expanded personal consciousness. It also provides historically accepted and morally symbolic (perhaps even spiritual) signposts along the way. But they are only signposts, pointing out potential pathways to a place of your own making. Unfortunately today the world is full of gurus. Perhaps (as we've always found it hard to destroy the ego) it always has been. As soon as one of these gurus sticks their head above the parapet and tries to explain to me that their experiences are the way to go then I'm totally turned off.
They may be well read and may have even experienced moments of personal enlightenment. However, for me a real guru will realise that "the tao that can be named is not the real tao. Those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak. Audi. Vide. Tace."
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 17, 2005 10:00:05 GMT
In that regard it's a bit like Religion. Some people are quite content with the "Table d'hote" or "Off the peg" approach. Sing the hymns, say the prayers and take the interpretation the Vicar, Priest or Minister puts on any Scripture Readings etc. Others, such as myself, prefer the Individual approach, be that in Church or in Lodge and derive our own meanings and messages.
To me many Masonic Rituals and Ceremonies DO have a religious feeling to them and I experience similar "vibes" as I would in a Church Service, although the Powers that Be will make a big issue of saying that Freemasonry is NOT a Religion nor a Substitute for Religion. That may be their stated view but my feelings and that of many others are to the contrary.
So I can agree with Bevan as far as there is no "Guru" or "Chosen One" to tell the Individual what he should or should not believe or what an experience means, we each plough our own furrow. Put it another way, I see my "Guru" every day and it doesn't cost me a penny nor do I need to travel to exotic countries. Where do I see this great guide? In the mirror!
"Occams Razor" ? I chucked that in the Medicine Cupboard to rust when I grew a beard! (or was that a Gillette?). I don't think we can reduce Life to a series of equations or dry propositions. There are experiences incapable of Scientific Proof but valid to the person who undergoes them.
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Post by corab on Jun 17, 2005 11:09:12 GMT
Russell, Stewart Part of the roles of the outer and inner guards is to keep off astral intruders but not many have been instructed in this. I can't quite believe what I'm reading here - are you saying that even though they're working with these energies, Masons aren't taught to open and close their minds and shield themselves? Stewart makes a very good point -- it's only too easy to let in the undesirables if you're not properly prepared for what you're doing. It's one of the reasons why ritual should NOT be publicly available! I don't know about Masonic ritual yet, but I do know Wiccan ritual and the absolute deluge of "spell books", "grimoires" and what have you currently publicly available from many a high street book store. Never fails to make me cringe. People start mucking about with this stuff and then they're suprised to find they've acquired something they hadn't bargained for. A very popular thing in neo-Pagan scenes is the so-called "self-initiation" - a DIY ritual. Can you imagine it - an utterly inexperienced teenager goes out and performs this ritual ... half of the time they've never cast a circle in their life, and so they haven't a clue as to how to protect themselves. Frightening stuff, I tell you - some writers and publishers have no conscience. Cora
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Post by bevan on Jun 17, 2005 12:18:03 GMT
Cora, I think self-initiation is probably the most rewarding type of initiation there is. As long as it's not being done according to someone else's instructions. And therein lies the problem. It's hard enough following IKEA instructions, never mind following something even more woolly than that. The zen student is only enlightened when s/he experiences something beyond their existing beliefs and/or experience. The more we codify our beliefs the harder it is to achieve enlightenment.
Taylorsman, Occam's Razor doesn't deal with scientific proof. It simply suggests that we should make no more assumptions than needed to arrive at a conclusion. Of course all things are probable but some things are more probable than others. I believe the bodymind (and soul) is better off when we do not allow desire to influence our beliefs. With spiritual experiences I believe we should simply believe what we experience. No need for proofs, explanations or assumptions.
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 17, 2005 12:21:30 GMT
Cora, this is all too true. I cannot speak from experience for alternative forms of Freemasonry but from what Whistler and others have posted over the months I have derived that they are far more aware of the Esoteric and of the Spiritual and Supernatural Forces and act accordingly.
In Regular Freemasonry most Tylers (Outer Guards) are older men who are given the Office as an honour or who are paid to perform the duty of Tyling the Lodge. Most are decent types to say the least and work hard but I doubt there is more than a mundane aspect to it for them. Lay out the Lodge, put the Signature Book by the door, check any unknown Brother who arrives, (a relatively rare occurance as most Visitors are the Guest of a known Member of that Lodge), give the correct knocks on the door and prepare Candidates properly.Afterwards collect in Collars and other Lodge equipment and give the Tyler's Toast at the Festive Board . I doubt many are attuned to Supernatural influences. Most Tylers I know read a paper or a book outside the Lodge when not actually doing anything.
Inner Guards, (with exceptions such as Lee who is genuinely interested in the Office), tend to be relatively new Freemasons and this is the first Office they will hold in the Lodge. They will be too involved in getting it right as regards Knocks, the spoken parts they have to perform, What to do when a Visitor is to be admitted, and in good Rituals their walk with the Poniard to the WM's Pedestal to be interested in Esoteric matters of the type you mention.
These simply are not mentioned in Regular Craft Meetings, the Opening and Closing becoming a rote performance with many more interested in the word perfect "parrot" recitation of the words than what they mean. I have no wish to be irreverent but I often think that Satan himself could walk into some Lodges as long as his Regalia was correct and he signed the book with a valid Lodge Number.
As to Masonic Ritual Books and other far deeper and more arcane volumes being freely available. There have been threads on this but with the internet you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. You may as well ban electricity. In the right hands and treated properly a very useful and benefical force but to the untrained a possibly fatal energy to them and others. I have know people get into "hot water" using a Ouija Board and would always tell anyone intrested in the occult to proceed with extreme caution. However, the books are available to all, Tyro and Adept alike.
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Post by corab on Jun 17, 2005 12:32:48 GMT
Hi Bevan, Cora, I think self-initiation is probably the most rewarding type of initiation there is. As long as it's not being done according to someone else's instructions. And therein lies the problem. It's hard enough following IKEA instructions, never mind following something even more woolly than that. The zen student is only enlightened when s/he experiences something beyond their existing beliefs and/or experience. The more we codify our beliefs the harder it is to achieve enlightenment. Good point! The problem is right where you put your finger, though - these "self-initiations" are done according to pre-written rituals, written by someone who does not know the candidate. It's such a leap in the dark! These kids are invoking powerful energies without due protection, and without the necessary support afterwards to deal with the usual post-initiation havoc. If Wilmshurst's Meaning of Masonry is anything to go by (and I think it is), it's like not bothering with the Craft Degrees and going straight into HRA - I cannot even begin to imagine the upheaval that would cause. A key thing about Initiation is that it is to be undertaken only by a "properly prepared person", and that seems to be missing dearly in the self-initiations (or rather the resulting mess) I've witnessed. Cora
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Post by bevan on Jun 17, 2005 12:51:45 GMT
These kids are invoking powerful energies without due protection, and without the necessary support afterwards to deal with the usual post-initiation havoc. Are they really? What use is a ritual if you don't "own" it? Anyway, whether they succeed in invoking real or imaginary energies, their experience will be their own and we should not presume to judge it. After all, who / what is right, assuming we can even ascribe value to the world of spirit?
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Post by corab on Jun 17, 2005 13:14:02 GMT
None whatsoever - for the individual performing it. For undesirable energies seeking a way in, it usually proves very useful, and that's my whole point. It doesn't matter whether the forces are imaginary or real - what matters is that the experience more often than not completely screws up the individual's mind, and indeed, their life. I've seen initiations gone wrong, and it's not a pleasant situation, least of all for the candidate, but at least when it happens they have the support of their Coven to get them through it. The often young self-initiates don't have that advantage. They're solitaries - they don't know anyone "real" (i.e. not online) who has similar experiences. They're on their own, in the dark, in an unknown place without even the faintest idea of getting out of it again. The books don't tell them about that - they tell them about the joyful experience of initiation, not what to do when it all goes to pot. I'm not judging them or their experience - I'm asking for writers and publishers to be more responsible in what information they dispense to the public and how they present it. There is a difference. Cora
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Post by bevan on Jun 17, 2005 13:50:51 GMT
Cora, you appear to believe that your interpretation of something (either read or personally experienced) is what will happen to others who attempt to follow the same beliefs. I believe people are welcome to make some money from selling their belief systems to others, with or without whatever warning signs on the pack you think they might require. Caveat emptor.
As you may have picked up from my writing, I don't believe in 'occult science' e.g. this ritual does that... I enjoy Masonic ritual for many different reasons and any supposed energies released are entirely my own, from my own interpretation of the experience.
Whilst I agree that many inexperienced seekers can fry their minds with the plethora of historical occult theories on the market, I do think that whatever the outcome is, it is their own personal experience alone.
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Post by corab on Jun 17, 2005 15:03:49 GMT
Bevan, Whilst I agree that many inexperienced seekers can fry their minds with the plethora of historical occult theories on the market, I do think that whatever the outcome is, it is their own personal experience alone. I guess we'll to agree agree to disagree then. Cora
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Post by leonardo on Jun 17, 2005 16:47:52 GMT
Cora, you appear to believe that your interpretation of something (either read or personally experienced) is what will happen to others who attempt to follow the same beliefs. This view supports what I've long believed - we should follow our own Path. Use whatever religious or belief system you like but you will ultimately have to find your own way. It's all individual.
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Post by corab on Jun 17, 2005 17:12:58 GMT
Cora, you appear to believe that your interpretation of something (either read or personally experienced) is what will happen to others who attempt to follow the same beliefs. This view supports what I've long believed - we should follow our own Path. Use whatever religious or belief system you like but you will ultimately have to find your own way. It's all individual. Okay, let me try and clarify this then - in Freemasonry there is a minimum age of 21 (special circumstances excepted). I'm talking about young teenagers, ages 12 and upward, who are doing this rituals. Yes - even a child should be free to chose its own path, but when exploring these paths, it must be under guidance. It isn't without reason that no self-respecting Coven will initiate anyone under the age of 18 - we're dealing with deeply moving matters of the spirit here, and the psyche must be mature enough to deal with those. A child on its own, with a spellbook - it's like a child with matches; how quickly would you like to see your house burnt down? Cora
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Post by bevan on Jun 17, 2005 17:17:00 GMT
This view supports what I've long believed - we should follow our own Path. Use whatever religious or belief system you like but you will ultimately have to find your own way. It's all individual. Leo, I don't know Cora but I suspect that she (and indeed most of us) would probably agree with you. I think the difficulty lies in using certain belief systems as an initial launch pad and then cutting your ties to it when you've outgrown it. I think too many sometimes cling on as they gain status or comfort within the belief structure. What I like about Masonry is that it's not really an esoteric belief system in and of itself. Rather, it's lots of little "signposts" that you make of what you will. It is not prescriptive but I think there are many esoteric Masons who will try to link esoteric symbols and concepts to their beliefs as they supposedly "penetrate" the hidden veils within the Craft.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Jun 18, 2005 5:40:45 GMT
It's good to see such a healthy debate on 'Energies' in the Lodge.
If one investigates the opening & closing ceremonies, certanly in CoMasonry, you will discover that it's whole purpose is to protrect the proceedings. We start with tyling - to still the mind fom outside influences, followed by the REGULAR entry spot on time, then with the Officers following long established forms of TYLING THE LODGE. Weather the individual attendee has put their whole effort into this or not, the LODGE is now "close tyled".
Any Initiation or higher degree ceremony ALWAYS begins with a call to TGAOTU or whomever to put their blessing & PROTECTION on the proceedings. This is all done by the officers. Of great importance is that non officers, especially Past Masters also attend, to ADD their weight behind such proceedings, as thier greater knowledge & understanding contributes to the sum total of POSITIVE energy flow.
One of the principal reasons for the Craft was to provide a SAFE environment for such initiations. In ALL aspects of endeavour no one should ever attempt to discover ALONE the way to such proceedings. We do NOT impose our belief systems, we merely 'show the way'. It is up to the individual to make of it what He will.
Any TRUE initiate will KNOW there is a time & place for everything. Masonry teaches us when to be Master & when to relinquish that authority. Working as a team is what succeeds. Yes, individuals may achieve results, but they are greater in an harmonious endeavour. The combined energies in group form protect each person present, plus gives one the opportunity to witness marvelous insights into all the entities present.
Working together is it's own joy, and as we progress up the Masonic Ladder we learn more & more that we are ALL EQUAL. None is individually a greater 'Guru' than the next!!
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