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Post by devoutfreemason on Aug 18, 2007 1:15:08 GMT
If he were not already obligated, I might could agree... But, he has taken his obligation under the Grand Lodge of Florida, and should remain true to that obligation. The obligation is to the Craft and one's self, not to a hierarchy. GL's come and go, politics within GL's come and go. The Craft is from time immaterial, and should be respected as such. The obligation is from the mason and G.A.O.T.U. So mote it be.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Aug 18, 2007 1:41:51 GMT
'Considers' is the right term! Whether they in fact are 'clandestine' is another matter. Fortunately for the Masonic world, not every brother interprets their obligation in the manner suggested, or there would have been no, for example, UGLE (as intervisitations between the two GLs in London at the time was prohibited - which never stopped intelligent free-thinking independent brethren from undertaking what they saw Masonically fit!). GLFlo is my (perhaps locally inaccurate) abbreviation of the GL of FLorida, and GLF inadvertently mistyped and meant to be GOF (Grand Orient of France which is, currently, I believe, the second oldest GL in continuous existence, second only to GLScotland - unless one takes the pre-union GLs of UGLE, but then, one may as well also take the GLs of Strassbourg and other places that antedate those!). Point is, there are varieties in Freemasonry, and legitimate (ie, 'regular') ones, even though perhaps not duly recognised as such by one's GL. When one takes the obligation (I know there are variations - and significant ones) it does not make a Grand Master somehow masonically superior to a Master Mason. One is in possession of the secrets, the means of recognition, and also the discrimination to be able to ascertain whether or not another Lodge is regular - and that irrespective of the proclamations that shift with time of one's GL in relation to inter-GL 'amity'. Having visited LDH (Co-Masonic), PMM (Memphis-Misraïm) and other Lodges overseas, I am satisfied that these are regular, whether or not my own GL has amity relations. The North-American based CGMINA (Conference of Grand Masters of Masons in North America) and Commission on Information for Recognitions is basically an additional body set up that to me seeks to impose on Master Masons its own views as somehow legitimate. And Brethren, I find even the very concept of these additional bodies (except as 'conference' bodies) rather beyond what is Masonically warranted, smacking instead of the disastrous moves by the UGLE GM in 1929 to seek (and then impose) 'guidelines' for the recognition of other Masonic bodies (on this, see my critical view). I am actually always rather surprised of the antagonism towards GOF in the USA, given Benjamin Franklin's own membership (and Mastership) to a Lodge under that GO. Also, given the individual freedom promulgated by the formation of the USA, it similarly surprises me that so many rather anti-individualistic impulses appears to arise in US-based Freemasonic GLs. If anything, I would have thought that there was the place that should be arguing for freedom of association and multiple membership of individuals; freedom of individual Lodges to determine their own membership, blind to pigmentation or gender; and freedom for temporary and legitimate Lodges to be formed whenever five or more Fellow Crafts decide to meet as such! Instead, what I hear increasingly is an ever tightening of and anti-individualistic call with an ever more severe interpretation of the obligation, with ever increasing 'Grand bodies' adding to rules, and submission (reflect on that word, brethren!) to the pronouncements of a self-appointed body initially formed for mutual conference. Is that the direction being taken by world Freemasonry? thankfully not - but it is the direction taken by some Masonic bodies who unfortunately shout their claim as though representing Masonry universal. Regularity is not determined but a small body of men who style themselves a Commission (nor any other body of men, for that matter). My mention in concern of the relatively recent event that sought to shut-up Bro Tim Bryce is because this event is more resplendent of the pronouncements of Germany in 1938, and totally unfit to reflect Freemasonry - and yet, there we have it, with the apparent support by the kind of comment (though not intended for such, and do not view Bro thedixiemason in that light) that sees in the obligation interpretations more than warranted for the good of Freemasonry in general.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Aug 18, 2007 1:44:28 GMT
oopss... there are a few replies that occurred as I was typing my reply to post #54 above by thedixiemason...
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Post by Blackadder on Aug 18, 2007 2:00:02 GMT
I recieved this email from Robert Cooper curator of the Grand Lodge of Scotland. Dear Brother Blackadder, Thank you for your e-mail. I am very well aware of the circumstances you describe. I travel extensively in the USA and am there once or twice a year. I also receive at least one enquiry such as yours every month. You are quite correct in your assumption that there is very little we can do from this part of the world. This is something because of a protocol known as 'geographic exclusivity' which means that where there is a recognised Grand Lodge no other Grand Lodge can form a Lodge there - in this case Florida. There are however a couple of things you might like to think about doing. Firstly, the Masonic Restoration Foundation is a US based organisation which aims to establish what it calls Traditional Observance Lodges in all the states of the US. Have a look at: www.masonicrestoration.com/ The Lodges they establish are not exactly of the Scottish type but are more European. That said, it might be something closer to what you are after. The web site contains information about how to go about starting up such a Lodge. The other thing you could do would be to set up a 'study circle' if it is researching the Craft that is of interest to you. There are other things that have been tried but are perhaps too radical for your situation. I hope that the above is of some interest.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Aug 18, 2007 3:27:12 GMT
There is an issue. For example, no matter how well intentioned a "tradiional observance" lodge within your system may be they still have to work within your system. That means if the GL of Florida restricts drinks either before or after a meeting so will a traditional observance lodge. If your GL dictates only blue table cloths will be used then only btue tablecloths will be found in a traditional observance lodge, Basically Traditional Observance is the same old same old with tuxedo's and candles.
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 18, 2007 3:50:00 GMT
Look. Here's what I suggest.
If you want Masonic education...join a Lodge of Research. (I'm sure they have those in FL.)
If you want to drink liquor and play cards....join the Shrine, or go to Vegas..
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Post by tws on Aug 18, 2007 4:03:35 GMT
Basically Traditional Observance is the same old same old with tuxedo's and candles. No, there is a greater emphisis on Masonic education and philosophical discussion in a TO lodge. That is the purpose behind it.
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Post by tws on Aug 18, 2007 4:14:20 GMT
Look. Here's what I suggest. If you want Masonic education...join a Lodge of Research. (I'm sure they have those in FL.) What's wrong with Masonic education in a regular Lodge? There's nothing in the obligation preventing it. Just a bunch of PGMs saying "We didn't do it that way in my day!" Why shouldn't alcohol be allowed during a FB? I don't usually imbibe, but I see nothing wrong with it. When did the prohibition come about, and why? And why, in this day and age is it still in place?
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Post by matt on Aug 18, 2007 4:26:52 GMT
>Basically Traditional Observance is the same old same old with tuxedo's and candles.
Brother,
There is much more to Traditional Observance than candles and a tuxedo. The problem that many are having within the GL system here in the United States is more about the actions and attitudes of the members, not the ritual (or constitutions of the GL) itself. Traditional Observance focuses on creating an atmosphere that facilitates growth and advancement in its members through powerful ritual, masonic education, presentation of papers, time set aside for contemplation and of course the fraternal festive board.
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Post by tws on Aug 18, 2007 4:45:52 GMT
>Basically Traditional Observance is the same old same old with tuxedo's and candles. Brother, There is much more to Traditional Observance than candles and a tuxedo. The problem that many are having within the GL system here in the United States is more about the actions and attitudes of the members, not the ritual (or constitutions of the GL) itself. Traditional Observance focuses on creating an atmosphere that facilitates growth and advancement in its members through powerful ritual, masonic education, presentation of papers, time set aside for contemplation and of course the fraternal festive board. What he said! ;D
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Post by Blackadder on Aug 18, 2007 5:21:31 GMT
I wondered when Dixie would come up with "Go to the Shrine",I hear that every single week. We were told our Lodge is a "working " lodge if you want fun go join the Shrine,then on the other hand I get asked from several PM's "what can we do to keep the younger brothers in the lodge" Two Brothers were raised last Saturday and they attended there first regular meeting on Wednesday,after the meeting I was asked "Is that it?",I replied "Thats all there is,nothing more nothing less" I'm pretty sure they will come back to receive there apron ,then they will probably "head back West as the East held no interest for them". In the past 4 years two Brothers have stayed at the lodge ,myself and my good friend and Brother
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 18, 2007 5:27:31 GMT
The Shrine is where Masons drink and play cards, and have fun, and raise TONS of money for charity....
IMO, the Blue Lodge should leave a new Mason asking "Is that it?"
The answer is NO. There is a lot of light to be found in both the York and Scottish Rites.....
In fact, the Royal Arch used to be attached to Craft Lodges.
Many Masons never look beyond their Blue Lodge into the recognized appendant bodies. The light is there.
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Post by Blackadder on Aug 18, 2007 5:35:38 GMT
The Shrine ,Grotto etc were founded because Masonry has become jaded and stale in the Blue Lodge. Does that not tell you something is wrong in the Blue Lodges when these off shoots have to be created for Brothers to have fun. In my Lodge I think here is only about five Brothers who are not in the Shrine,Scottish Rite or York Rite,I dint think any of the brothers go on a regular basis,because all that happens is that they get hounded for donations etc.
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Post by matt on Aug 18, 2007 6:31:26 GMT
It is not neccessary for most people to search outside of the blue lodge for more light. The map of the lesser mysteries is laid out in the 3 degrees. Surely you do not think that any organization makes Master Masons. It is left to the individual to figure out how to use the keys they are given, to unlock the various doors of the Mysteries.
"...neither do I know that you will ever be in possession of them. You have yet a rough and ragged road to travel over; a journey in which life has been lost."
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Post by calvin on Aug 18, 2007 17:27:08 GMT
I am actually always rather surprised of the antagonism towards GOF in the USA, given Benjamin Franklin's own membership (and Mastership) to a Lodge under that GO. Come now, Bro. Ben Franklin died in 1790, nearly 100 years before the Grand Orient of France prompted most Grand Lodges in North America (and many elsewhere) to sever ties when it began admitting atheists as members in the late 1800's. No offense intended, Bro jmd -- just clarifying the record. Cal
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Post by leonardo on Aug 18, 2007 17:36:36 GMT
I am actually always rather surprised of the antagonism towards GOF in the USA, given Benjamin Franklin's own membership (and Mastership) to a Lodge under that GO. Come now, Bro. Ben Franklin died in 1790, nearly 100 years before the Grand Orient of France prompted most Grand Lodges in North America (and many elsewhere) to sever ties when it began admitting atheists as members in the late 1800's. No offense intended, Bro jmd -- just clarifying the record. Cal I imagine JMD is well aware of the time frame
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Post by calvin on Aug 18, 2007 18:16:53 GMT
I imagine JMD is well aware of the time frame Agreed! But his reference to Franklin felt, to me at least, a tad misleading (which I know was not his intention) and needed further illumination for the benefit of those unfamiliar with the history. Cal
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Post by leonardo on Aug 18, 2007 18:29:06 GMT
I imagine JMD is well aware of the time frame Agreed! But his reference to Franklin felt, to me at least, a tad misleading (which I know was not his intention) and needed further illumination for the benefit of those unfamiliar with the history. Cal Not how I saw it but nonetheless I take your point; clarification is always welcome, especially for those yet to become familiar with this aspect of history.
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Post by brandt on Aug 18, 2007 20:56:15 GMT
Brother Blackadder, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. You will run into several situations in which you will be disappointed. Cest la vie. Always return to the question "what came you here to do?" it is the most important question to revisit.
Brandt
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 19, 2007 7:27:02 GMT
OK. Is this one done???
Like Brandt said, "Best of luck."
Like I said, "If you want change, do it from within."
Can we agree that those are basically the two "opinions?" If so, let's kill this one...(for now)
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