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Post by billmcelligott on Aug 31, 2012 11:38:50 GMT
No more political promotion please - This is a Masonic forum.
There are many forums where you can discuss Politics.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 1, 2012 22:24:24 GMT
Freemasonry and politics are not as mutually exclusive as some like to imagine. As this is not to be discussed here, those who wish to pursue their conjunction may enjoy the topic at The Quarry, where it is a featured theme.
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commiegirl
Member
From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
Posts: 110
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Post by commiegirl on Sept 2, 2012 0:24:28 GMT
Bill, This topic directly related to Freemasonry and it's underlying socialist values. I don't see how this topic in any way was inappropriate to the forum.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 2, 2012 4:37:49 GMT
Bill, This topic directly related to Freemasonry and it's underlying socialist values. I don't see how this topic in any way was inappropriate to the forum. If I thought there was no Masonic content I could have hit the delete thread button. It was starting to be my politics is better than yours ................. and I felt a reminder was called for.
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 3, 2012 10:33:44 GMT
Anubis
You are a very good member of this Forum and someone I know is completely genuine in all things regarding Freemasonry.
I know that you are not happy with some of the things that have been written in this thread, however we always try to leave things unless they seriously go astray.
I have actually quite enjoyed the comments made on both sides of this discussion and have found not only your comments but also Commiegirls comments interesting, probably because you both passionately believe you are right.
From the outside it is a good debate, please dont spoil it by suggesting that Commiegirl is a sockpuppet, it is wrong as well as rude. However please continue to debate with all your normal passion!
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Post by 345 on Sept 4, 2012 0:56:13 GMT
Socialism is quite natural as found in primitive humanity. Those providing for common need instead of selfish interest. The elimination of all sources of unjust discrimination. Class systems, caste systems, patriarchy etc. etc. From my perspective, there are a few insurmountable problems with Communism which make it completely untenable for me. One is cultural- most Communists tend to be zealots, and fanatics are always wrong (even if they agree with me). Another is philosophic in that Communism is a utopian system. It accepts as fundamental truths a number of 'universal' observations and principles which I simply do not see reflected in human history or psychology. The above comment is one casual example. The notion of 'primitive humanity' living in peace and accord is an intellectual remnant of 18th Cent cultural romanticism and has very, very few analogues in the real world- certainly not enough to merit the blanket claim that peace, equality and beneficence is the base state of humanity and that state can be can be reclaimed. If anything 'primitive' humanity tends to be more rooted in tradition, inequality and entrenched power structures than most of Westernised society today- class and caste systems immediately spring to mind as well as the subjection of women. I think Hobbes was closer to the mark. Rather than positing a community of equals, he exclaimed that the natural condition of man was to be in a state of war with man and life thus being "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short". Marx and Engels drew inspiration from the anthropology of the day, which, by modern standards, was romanticised, condescending, patronising and paternalistic- and those tendencies can still be found in Communist thought. This is not to say that Marx in particular is intellectually empty or vacuous- he is not. But his great contribution was the provision of tools with which to critique social organisations rather than providing an effective or realistic blueprint for a new social order. The solution to political and social problems addressed my Das Kapital etc starts with a solution to the problem of scarcity- which is a technological issue, not one of political reorganisation. On the other hand, Socialist principles (rather than necessarily Socialism per se), is simply a matter of good manners and human decency. It is here that I see the intersection between Freemasonry and 'Socialism' (i.e. Socialist principles) with the Masonic encouragement to attend to benevolent projects. Similarly, I also see Freemasonry as an aid to adjust our less charitable and more self-serving natures.
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commiegirl
Member
From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
Posts: 110
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Post by commiegirl on Sept 4, 2012 3:31:51 GMT
Socialism is quite natural as found in primitive humanity. Those providing for common need instead of selfish interest. The elimination of all sources of unjust discrimination. Class systems, caste systems, patriarchy etc. etc. From my perspective, there are a few insurmountable problems with Communism which make it completely untenable for me. One is cultural- most Communists tend to be zealots, and fanatics are always wrong (even if they agree with me). Another is philosophic in that Communism is a utopian system. It accepts as fundamental truths a number of 'universal' observations and principles which I simply do not see reflected in human history or psychology. The above comment is one casual example. The notion of 'primitive humanity' living in peace and accord is an intellectual remnant of 18th Cent cultural romanticism and has very, very few analogues in the real world- certainly not enough to merit the blanket claim that peace, equality and beneficence is the base state of humanity and that state can be can be reclaimed. If anything 'primitive' humanity tends to be more rooted in tradition, inequality and entrenched power structures than most of Westernised society today- class and caste systems immediately spring to mind as well as the subjection of women. I think Hobbes was closer to the mark. Rather than positing a community of equals, he exclaimed that the natural condition of man was to be in a state of war with man and life thus being "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short". Marx and Engels drew inspiration from the anthropology of the day, which, by modern standards, was romanticised, condescending, patronising and paternalistic- and those tendencies can still be found in Communist thought. This is not to say that Marx in particular is intellectually empty or vacuous- he is not. But his great contribution was the provision of tools with which to critique social organisations rather than providing an effective or realistic blueprint for a new social order. The solution to political and social problems addressed my Das Kapital etc starts with a solution to the problem of scarcity- which is a technological issue, not one of political reorganisation. On the other hand, Socialist principles (rather than necessarily Socialism per se), is simply a matter of good manners and human decency. It is here that I see the intersection between Freemasonry and 'Socialism' (i.e. Socialist principles) with the Masonic encouragement to attend to benevolent projects. Similarly, I also see Freemasonry as an aid to adjust our less charitable and more self-serving natures. I've been accused of being pretty a fanatical Communist. I certainly am a rigidly orthodox one. I'm not so sure sticking to principles in a disciplined manner is a bad thing however. I would argue the opposite. It's not like my politics is based on fashion, fad or whim. My politics is based on the total desire to see emancipation and freedom spread throughout the world. To everyone. Jean Jacques-Rousseau can no doubt be attributed to great influence on Marxism. Along with other "utopian" philosophers and revolutionaries. Francois Noel- Babeuf, Pierre-Antoine Antonelle, Immanuel Kant etc. I don't have a romantic view of primitive man, but it's very hard to argue that primitive man discovered altruism pretty early on. We became a communal species out of sheer survival. Primitive man didn't behave as scorpions, killing each other the second they met. We now live under an age of global empire. Openly Fascistic politicians now can be found all over the world, cloaked in the falsehood of "individual rights." We see the negative poison of colonialism, Imperialism and Complex based Capitalism all over the world. 80% of the world's population live off of less than $1.00 per day. Freemasonry instructs the Freemason to be kind, courteous and generous. It instructs the Freemason to look out for all under the canopy of Heaven. It erases class distinction. It's these very fundamentals than make it a Socialist art.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 4, 2012 5:09:05 GMT
Adhering to principles is not a bad thing. I would suggest that you don't instruct Masons on what Masonry teaches as you are not a Mason by your own admission. Some may not hear the things that you have to say.
Openly tyrannical policitians often cloak their message in the comfortable cloaks of the "common good." Does that diminish the quality of socialist message?
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commiegirl
Member
From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
Posts: 110
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Post by commiegirl on Sept 4, 2012 6:32:58 GMT
Adhering to principles is not a bad thing. I would suggest that you don't instruct Masons on what Masonry teaches as you are not a Mason by your own admission. Some may not hear the things that you have to say. Openly tyrannical policitians often cloak their message in the comfortable cloaks of the "common good." Does that diminish the quality of socialist message? I can't force anyone to hear. That's not really an issue. Freemasonry is (at least in some small part) about changing the world, would you agree? Socialism is about changing the world too. It's about doing things better, for a better planet. Not just for the few, but for everyone.
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Alberich
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Supreme Superintendent of the Sublime Silver Shovel
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Post by Alberich on Sept 4, 2012 9:14:31 GMT
Some of you might want to look up the Capitalism Death Toll Project. Education is key in the age of global empire. Is the Capitalism Death Toll Project something that's more or less equivalent to the Stalin Gulag Archipeligo Death Toll Project and is spouting out rhetorical statements such as "Education is blah blah blah" the key to showing how hundreds of millions of people are now equally dead? Education is not the key. If education were the key, it would address the moral failings of the corruption behind these various political systems that oppress humans and require their subservience. In that regard, these systems are equally on par with one another: they equally require blood sacrifices to serve the state/bank/government/church hierarchy of a privileged class of leaders who equally substitute morals for a philosophy of "the end justifies the means" so that they can maintain their exalted positions. It doesn't take an education to recognize that a boot strap stepping on your neck, whether it's being worn by a capitalist, a pope, a king, or a commie, is the same as any other boot. The tactics are equally the same. I've never claimed to be an advocate for Maoism. Maoism is an ultra-Lefist opportunistic ideology based upon class collaboration, not class struggle. I'm a Maxist-Leninist. I suggest you educate yourself on the differences Anubis before making incorrect assumptions. Tamrin , thank you for posting that quote. Capitalism is organized crime against humanity. Commiegirl, Communism, or any-ism is organized crime against humanity -- the death toll statistics prove this to be true; you are simply advocating one ism as being better than another and all you are doing is presenting rhetorical statements to that effect. Commiegirl, how is one death camp any different from another one? Class struggle? Is that the part where one group of corrupt leaders get half of the ignorant masses to kill off the current class of corrupt leaders so that they can then kill off the other half of the ignorant masses and then re-educate the remainder with propaganda so that they can be controlled? Class collaboration? Is that like the Chinese Cultural Revolution and the purging of the Gang of Four that was accompanied by mass relocations to camps for re-education? Now that the current Chinese regime has turned their masses into slaves for Wal-Mart, Apple, and the Capitalist Banking System, and a new class of wealthy businessmen has emerged that sell manufactured products, everything is better, unless you're one of the millions in that special class that makes stuff. Make no mistake: I'm certainly not simply advocating Capitalism as a substitute argument to prove the evils of Communism and then trotting out a Smedley Butler or any of the other walking dead to hint at a conspiracy. China is a communist country that is just now figuring out that it is a deadend and are changing to (oh no) capitalism. Exactly. Freemasonry and it's egalitarian socialist principles fit together nicely with Marxism. Please demonstrate how Freemasonry is socialist, please specify what the socialist principles are that you're referring to, and then prove how they fit together nicely with Marxism by citing examples. No more political promotion please - This is a Masonic forum. There are many forums where you can discuss Politics. Brother, for the benefit of the Craft, I'm interested to see if some of these extraordinary statements can be proven by using logic -- one of the 7 Liberal Arts taught in our Craft. All of our Masonic teachings seem to fall a little flat if we cannot use their tenets to formulate useful social constructs and systems by which humanity can exist in an improved state. If Freemasonry is truly Socialist or Communist, and these systems can somehow improve our sad world, why would a Brother wish to silence information that could help everyone? It's very difficult to discuss Socialism in any depth with those so unfamiliar with it. This is not an insult, but rather a factual observation. Das Kapital is crucial to understanding Socialism and it's benefits to mankind. The Communist Manifesto, while a beautiful call to arms, is not the end all be all. Kapital and Grundrisse are more useful when discussing Socialist economics. Socialism is quite natural as found in primitive humanity. Those providing for common need instead of selfish interest. The elimination of all sources of unjust discrimination. Class systems, caste systems, patriarchy etc. etc. How is that not better for society? You have not shown how any of these manifestos will eliminate a corrupt class of privileged leaders, who will always use the end to justify the means, and which always will involve subverting the philosophies that you are exalting. How does either socialism or socialism, by any work that you wish to present and completely on your own terms, ensure that the age-old problems of hypocrisy, control, and corruption result in death? Do you simply kill anyone with whom don't agree? That seems to be the solution, especially among the left wing. And especially among the right wing. The simple fact is, when workers must sell their labor for less than it's value (Capitalism) that results in classes of masters and serfs. Value is not established by the seller except in cases of scarcity. A brick mason may sell his labor at a higher cost than an unskilled person. The reason is that the brick mason's skill is more rare than that of an unskilled person's labor. Since value is not an objective quality but it is entirely subjective how can we make everyone equal economically? The skilled laborer is a good example of how we are not equal. The gifted artisan, whose creations are appreciated and prized by some, and ignored or even despised by the ignorant, is an even better example because not everyone the capacity for genius.
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Alberich
Member
Supreme Superintendent of the Sublime Silver Shovel
Posts: 48
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Post by Alberich on Sept 4, 2012 9:35:17 GMT
[Freemasonry] erases class distinction. It's these very fundamentals than make it a Socialist art. Although masons meet temporarily in a lodge "on the level", masonry does not erase class distinction, although it professes to, and some may even buy into that philosophy. For example, only lodge officers and Past Masters may vote in Grand Lodge. In some systems, Entered Apprentices and Fellowcrafts may not vote or even attend certain meetings. As I've previously stated before in this thread, there are further distinctions of Masonic Rank that dictate protocol. There are invitational orders. If you've ever been on a masonic forum, then there are instances of one class of masons controlling everyone else, and I can think of a few where the "class structure" boggles the mind. They completely defy the concepts of "on the level". But after masons part on the square and go out into the world ... there are many masons who simply do not live up to the promises they've made, or don't attempt to put into actual practice any of its useful precepts. Freemasonry is not a magic band-aid for social ills. What Freemasonry is -- is a system whereby one person may apply symbolic teachings to improve their own state of being by focusing and reflecting upon their inner self. Until they've actually improved themselves and done some meditation, all this talk of 'getting along' is nonsense. I've seen Past Masters almost come to blows right inside a lodge and participate in screaming matches. Obviously, they've not yet begun even the basics. Commiegirl, stop trying to make Freemasonry into something it's not -- or rather, stop using it as an ideal to prove a specific agenda. It just doesn't fit well. And hey -- my great-grandfather was a socialist who worked in the coal mines of Scotland, and one of the first union organizers in that country. I know a little bit about class struggle and I'm still struggling. I just don't think that any of the ideals you've espoused here are practical because they've been tried and they've failed.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 4, 2012 9:50:32 GMT
Well that depends on if the tail is wagging the Dog or it is not. I have silenced no one just reminded everyone that this is a Masonic forum not a Political one. Also who said Freemasonry was 'truly socialist or communist'. freemasonry will always be what its members want it to be. That is why discussion [in Lodge] of Religious and Political matters is banned.
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Post by anubis on Sept 4, 2012 19:02:41 GMT
Freemasonry is (at least in some small part) about changing the world, would you agree? It is about changing yourself, within. It is about making the individual subservient to the state. It is about taking from those who produce, and redistributing their wealth to those who do not, effectively making them a slave.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 4, 2012 20:45:15 GMT
“Charge them to practice out of the Lodge, those duties which they have been taught in it; and by amiable, discreet and virtuous conduct, to convince mankind of the goodness of the Institution; so that when a person is said to be a member of it, the world may know that he is one to whom the burdened heart may pour out its sorrows; to whom distress may prefer its suit; whose hand is guided by justice, and whose heart is expanded by benevolence.” The Incorporation of Mutual Aid
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 5, 2012 12:00:22 GMT
Okay everyone
This is a Masonic Forum! Final warning, anymore political posts and it will be locked THis section is entitled General Masonic Discussion, I have left everything I could see had some 'general masonic' content.
Pleas take a look at the rules of the forum
Attacks on Grand Lodges of any persuasion are not allowed and attacks on Countires and thier political systems is also now out of bounds! As Bill has clearly stated if you want to discuss politics there are several Forums for that out there! NOT HERE!
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Post by sid on Sept 5, 2012 12:30:07 GMT
Brother, for the benefit of the Craft, I'm interested to see if some of these extraordinary statements can be proven by using logic -- one of the 7 Liberal Arts taught in our Craft. All of our Masonic teachings seem to fall a little flat if we cannot use their tenets to formulate useful social constructs and systems by which humanity can exist in an improved state. If Freemasonry is truly Socialist or Communist, and these systems can somehow improve our sad world, why would a Brother wish to silence information that could help everyone? Well that depends on if the tail is wagging the Dog or it is not. I have silenced no one just reminded everyone that this is a Masonic forum not a Political one. Also who said Freemasonry was 'truly socialist or communist'. freemasonry will always be what its members want it to be. That is why discussion [in Lodge] of Religious and Political matters is banned. ... perhaps simply because many of these subjects attract more trouble and if at all, very little light.!?
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commiegirl
Member
From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
Posts: 110
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Post by commiegirl on Sept 5, 2012 15:12:00 GMT
Okay everyone This is a Masonic Forum! Final warning, anymore political posts and it will be locked THis section is entitled General Masonic Discussion, I have left everything I could see had some 'general masonic' content. Pleas take a look at the rules of the forum Attacks on Grand Lodges of any persuasion are not allowed and attacks on Countires and thier political systems is also now out of bounds! As Bill has clearly stated if you want to discuss politics there are several Forums for that out there! NOT HERE! Middlepillar, That's all well and fine but I do have an issue. 345 wrote a very long post which took me a lot of time and a very long post to answer in depth. This was to increase his knowledge base. For those to be simply erased is really to not respect the time and effort that went into making them. Surely, Masons can't be against broadening their knowledge base on any subject? Looking through the forum this has been the most active thread in some time. That can't be a bad thing. You're an admin on this forum and I am not. I run quite a few facebook groups and I make it clear that what I decide to eliminate is my decision so I respect yours. I just wanted to make my feelings clear as well.
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 5, 2012 22:16:34 GMT
Commie Girl I understand your disagreement, and somewhat sympathise having been on the end of Moderators decisions myself in the past. However first of all this whole area is for General Masonic discussion, your original post was an interesting start to what could of been (and still can be) a very interesting discussion. It descended into a plain simple political discussion/slanging match and I am sorry this board is reserved for Masonic discussion, I have tried to cut out the political bits as best I can, I am sorry if you or anyone feels harshly treated, I have tried to be fair. I do apologise for deleting your reply to 345, we all learn things and maybe if I was to do this again I may of saved it and been able to forward it by PM, but I didnt. The area entitled non masonic discussions is where any other types of discussions can be held, however please bear in mind this a Masonic forum not a political one, the mods will only allow so much political argument before acting, and petty arguing and abusive posts will be deleted. Okay everyone This is a Masonic Forum! Final warning, anymore political posts and it will be locked THis section is entitled General Masonic Discussion, I have left everything I could see had some 'general masonic' content. Pleas take a look at the rules of the forum Attacks on Grand Lodges of any persuasion are not allowed and attacks on Countires and thier political systems is also now out of bounds! As Bill has clearly stated if you want to discuss politics there are several Forums for that out there! NOT HERE! Middlepillar, That's all well and fine but I do have an issue. 345 wrote a very long post which took me a lot of time and a very long post to answer in depth. This was to increase his knowledge base. For those to be simply erased is really to not respect the time and effort that went into making them. Surely, Masons can't be against broadening their knowledge base on any subject? Looking through the forum this has been the most active thread in some time. That can't be a bad thing. You're an admin on this forum and I am not. I run quite a few facebook groups and I make it clear that what I decide to eliminate is my decision so I respect yours. I just wanted to make my feelings clear as well.
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commiegirl
Member
From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
Posts: 110
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Post by commiegirl on Sept 5, 2012 23:01:37 GMT
Middlepillar, point taken, acknowledged and respected. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
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Post by maat on Sept 19, 2012 23:59:29 GMT
As a dire hard Socialist, the most interesting part of Freemasonry for me is it's deeply Socialist message. All equal, no class nor caste. Of course, the gender exclusion is nonsense but that is mainly a relic of a patriarchal age. Anyway, it was just on my mind. Read Animal Farm? The idea is good but practically speaking socialism has proven to be a failure, and weakens the very people it is meant to help. Bit like an over protective/possessive mother will stifle the growth of her child.
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